What would you shoot at ANGC as it played today?

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young,

How many strokes have the added length, rough and trees added to your fantasy score?

Anyone else in town for the frozen four?  

John,
anytime I have played we had to play member tees and have not played the back tees but have hit a driver off of 11 and I would have to hit a rescue club 2nd.  If you are calling the number I mentioned above my fantasy score I would say the added length etc would add 6 shots.....but during normal play I think most people are pretty true to their handicap.....
When you coming this way?
Mike

[Ryan Farrow]

I'm not sure, but it's my understanding that after Phil Mickelson was quoted as saying that the winning score would be over par and David Feherty compared it to a US Open, someone at the USGA called Oakmont and told them to begin double-cutting and rolling the greens tonight and to do it daily until Father's Day...

This is good, real good. Double cut at Oakmont??? Try three or four , FOR THE MEMBERS!!!!!

If these guys can't break par at augusta and it doesnt rain everyday for 2 weeks leading up to the US Open, double digits over par might do it at Oakmont, that is if they don't slow down the greens for the poor PGA Tour players.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, I think Ober is about a +2 or +3.  He came in 2nd in last year's So CA Mid-Am, IIRC.

My guess is that ANGC's slope would be around 200: I figure a 20 handicap, who drives the ball 200 yards, would shoot around 120 to 125 under Masters conditions.  Also think course rating under Masters conditions probably is around 85.  

If so, you'd need around a 7.5 handicap index, to average 99 at ANGC on your best 10 of 20 rounds.  

ETA: has anyone on this site played the course from the Masters tees?  How did you do, even without the greens stimping at 12 or 13 or whatever?  

Jim,
Please don't take my reply above as a slam at David Ober's ability.....my only comparison as of now is Dave womack....I know how he plays AND.....
Mike

[Bruceski]

If you're reading and posting on this board you wouldn't break 100.

[JNC Lyon]

I think I could break 100, even as a 7 handicap.  My biggest weakness is length off the tee (I average about 210-220), and the firm conditions would offset that.  My putting generally strong, and I might even make a few.  Allowing for the occasional 8, I could bring it on home at 97.

[David Lott]

Myself.

[Doug Siebert]

Looking at it from my perspective as a 5 handicap, the length, additional trees and second cut are incidental and mostly meaningless to my score.  If I played the 1986 course under the same conditions as today it wouldn't help my score anywhere near as much as playing today's course using a more moderate green speed and/or softer greens.  Those trees are a LOT easier to play from than those on my home course, which don't have all their branches 15-20 feet up where they allow free swings and plenty of trajectory options!  And, to be honest, I'd be visiting ANGC's trees even on the 1986 layout

The thing that is going to eat me alive isn't that I'm not capable of parring every hole there -- I think I would be, and many of them are probably birdieable for me.  But that's rather like saying that every hole on my home course is birdieable for me.  It may be true, but I haven't ever shot a 54.  No, the thing that gets you are not the holes that you par, or even the ones that you had a halfway decent shot at parring until you lost your way at some point and had to settle for bogey.  Its the holes you go on tilt and end up with a triple or quad, and there would probably be several such holes for me at ANGC.

I think whether I could break 100 or not would be down to getting a few more good breaks than bad and keeping my temper when things don't go my way.  I'd bet heavily against myself breaking 100 if I had to put money on it.  But let me play there every day for a week or two and I'll bet I could get my ringer score to par, I'm inconsistent that way

This reminds me of a related question I'll have to start a new thread on...

[Sean Leary]

Amateurs would be putting all day. Even a good club player would have trouble actually getting the ball in the hole (assuming no gimmes).  I have never seen so many missed 3-4 footers.

I am a lower handicap and I don't believe that I could break 100 on that course today in a friendly game with my friends, never mind in a tournament setting.  

[Lloyd_Cole]

Amateurs would be putting all day. Even a good club player would have trouble actually getting the ball in the hole (assuming no gimmes).  I have never seen so many missed 3-4 footers.

I am a lower handicap and I don't believe that I could break 100 on that course today in a friendly game with my friends, never mind in a tournament setting.  

Agreed
I think I 'd be around about the green in regulation about half of the holes, I'd be surprised if I one putted more than a couple of times and I'd expect 3 or 4 four putts, 40 putts minimum, probably nearer 50. What kind of a stroke can you be expected to take home with you after you have been completely dismantled? I for one, don't want to go there.

[Matthew Mollica]

I asked a mate of mine off 11 yesterday what we'd score if we played (I'm off 7 and drive it 225+). Neither of us thought we'd break 100.

I've got a mate off 2 playing it at the end of the month.
I'm keen to see which tees he plays, how fast and firm the greens are, where the pins are, and what he scores.

MM

[Kevin Pallier]

I'm with Matthew - I reckon I'd be happy to break 100.

I play off 9 and normally if I play within 5 shots of my handicap on a foreign course I'm pretty chuffed. Off the back tees and not knowing the severity of the slopes especially on a championship setup - I think I'd be lucky just to make a couple of pars, let alone keep my total below 100.

[Glenn Spencer]

Probably between 80 and 90. As low as 77 or 78 and as high as 94 or 95.

I play a lot of golf at Bear Creek Golf Club in Murrieta, California (~7100 and 75.3/143.). Tom Pernice Jr. is a member and plays there all the time. He shoots 67 - 70 most rounds and will go slightly lower than that when he plays well. He plays with "The Guys" all the time in the Friday and Saturday skins games when he's in town. I generally shoot 70 to 76 on that course when my back is feeling okay unless it's set up very difficult or I have a poor round.

Three or four weeks ago, a local top mid-am, Steve Nichols, shot a nice 64 at Pernice, and I think Pernice shot 68 or 69 that day.

Last year's U.S. Mid-Am champ, Womack (I think that's his name), shot two rounds in the 80's. I have played against two U.S. Mid-Am champs and a U.S. Publinks champ: Danny Green, Greg Puga, and Tim Hogarth, and in any given round I am capable of beating them, though they are going to get the best of me most of the time in a four-round tournament.

I'm sure Mucci is going to have a cow at my statement, but so be it. I have no doubt that I could shoot in the 80's at Augusta in today's conditions, and even in the 70's if I putted well.

There's at least one other player on this board (and probably others) that I know could do the same thing: Andrew Biggadike.

Oh yeah: To shoot anything decent, I'd have to take a cart, because walking that course would give me a frickin' heart attack! LOL!

DAVID,
IT IS OBVIOUS YOU MUST BE A GOOD PLAYER.....HAVE YOU QUALIFIED FOR MATCHPLAY IN ANY USGA EVENTS?
IT IS MY OPINION THAT MOST SCRATCH PLAYERS WOULD NOT BREAK 100.....MYSELF I HAVE SHOT 73 AT ANGC DURING THE SEASON BT COULD NOT BREAK 100 DURING TOURNEY......
I THINK THAT MOST PLAYERS BELOW THE LEVEL OF USGA MATCHPLAY COMPETITION WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME GOING UNDER 100.....
ALSO MOST TOUR EVENT COURSES ARE NOT SET THAT DIFFICULT....THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT COURSE THAN A TOUR COURSE...PLAYING A TOUR PLAYER AT YOUR HOME CLUB AND PLAYING UNDER THE GUN ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS
BUT WOULD WISH YOU THE BEST....
MIKE

Mike,

John Kelly shot 77-77 and I would take 22 from him anyday, even with Masters crowds, TV and Freddy and Jason as our caddies. Length is not the issue. Just putt reasonably and one would be fine. Chipping could be my waterloo, but with the proper practice rounds, breaking 90 in one of the two rounds would be a piece of cake. The course seems like it would suit me off the tee, nowhere else, but off the tee it would suit me. David Ober shooting 23 or more worse than Kelly is absurd. Oh, never mind, I didn't see the caveat, I have made a matchplay before. I am sure that Ober has made many. Still, I think there are scratches that could do it.

[Rich Goodale]

Unlike Faulkner (Bill and/or Max), I would endure, but not prevail.  97 with a bullet.

[Joel_Stewart]

I doubt anyone on this site could break 90 including Jamie.  

I remember playing Olympic a few days before the US Open in 1998 and didn't make a par until the 7th hole.  Most of that was because of the rough but ANGC is so much longer and faster.

[David Ober]

Probably between 80 and 90. As low as 77 or 78 and as high as 94 or 95.

I play a lot of golf at Bear Creek Golf Club in Murrieta, California (~7100 and 75.3/143.). Tom Pernice Jr. is a member and plays there all the time. He shoots 67 - 70 most rounds and will go slightly lower than that when he plays well. He plays with "The Guys" all the time in the Friday and Saturday skins games when he's in town. I generally shoot 70 to 76 on that course when my back is feeling okay unless it's set up very difficult or I have a poor round.

Three or four weeks ago, a local top mid-am, Steve Nichols, shot a nice 64 at Pernice, and I think Pernice shot 68 or 69 that day.

Last year's U.S. Mid-Am champ, Womack (I think that's his name), shot two rounds in the 80's. I have played against two U.S. Mid-Am champs and a U.S. Publinks champ: Danny Green, Greg Puga, and Tim Hogarth, and in any given round I am capable of beating them, though they are going to get the best of me most of the time in a four-round tournament.

I'm sure Mucci is going to have a cow at my statement, but so be it. I have no doubt that I could shoot in the 80's at Augusta in today's conditions, and even in the 70's if I putted well.

There's at least one other player on this board (and probably others) that I know could do the same thing: Andrew Biggadike.

Oh yeah: To shoot anything decent, I'd have to take a cart, because walking that course would give me a frickin' heart attack! LOL!

DAVID,
IT IS OBVIOUS YOU MUST BE A GOOD PLAYER.....HAVE YOU QUALIFIED FOR MATCHPLAY IN ANY USGA EVENTS?
IT IS MY OPINION THAT MOST SCRATCH PLAYERS WOULD NOT BREAK 100.....MYSELF I HAVE SHOT 73 AT ANGC DURING THE SEASON BT COULD NOT BREAK 100 DURING TOURNEY......
I THINK THAT MOST PLAYERS BELOW THE LEVEL OF USGA MATCHPLAY COMPETITION WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME GOING UNDER 100.....
ALSO MOST TOUR EVENT COURSES ARE NOT SET THAT DIFFICULT....THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT COURSE THAN A TOUR COURSE...PLAYING A TOUR PLAYER AT YOUR HOME CLUB AND PLAYING UNDER THE GUN ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS
BUT WOULD WISH YOU THE BEST....
MIKE

Mike,

John Kelly shot 77-77 and I would take 22 from him anyday, even with Masters crowds, TV and Freddy and Jason as our caddies. Length is not the issue. Just putt reasonably and one would be fine. Chipping could be my waterloo, but with the proper practice rounds, breaking 90 in one of the two rounds would be a piece of cake. The course seems like it would suit me off the tee, nowhere else, but off the tee it would suit me. David Ober shooting 23 or more worse than Kelly is absurd. Oh, never mind, I didn't see the caveat, I have made a matchplay before. I am sure that Ober has made many. Still, I think there are scratches that could do it.

Glenn,

I have never made match play at a U.S. event because it is almost impossible for me to walk 18 (let alone 36) and play anywhere near my best due to my lack of conditioning and a bad right arch. I have only attempted the U.S. Mid-Am Qualifier three times, missing by one twice (once with a triple on the last hole -- yikes!)

In the last two SCGA Mid-Am tournaments, I finished T-3 and T-11 and bested the following players, all of whom have at least made match play at a U.S. Event and some much farther than that:

Scott McGihon (Holds the 2nd lowest 36-hole score in U.S. Mid-Am history)

Ed Cuff Jr. ('99 California Amateur Champ)

Tim Hogarth ('99 U.S. Public Links Champ)

Don DuBois (2005 California Amateur Champ)

Craig Steinberg ('97 and '99 U.S. Mid-Am Semi-Finalist)

Gary Havro

John McClure

David Bartman

John Adams

Patrick Carrigan

Jason Bittick

Michael Turner

Keith Kinsel

Jason Bittick


If the original poster doesn't think I am capable of playing shot for shot, hole for hole with anyone who makes match play in U.S. events, I really don't know what to say.

You really put it in perspective with the 22 shots comment above. Oh well. I'll just keep competing.

[Mike_Young]

Glenn,
None of my post re David and his abilities were meant as a slap at his ability and I dont doubt your ability.  
I also never mentioned distance as a factor....I do think the chipping,pitching and putting wold be the problem for all .....BUT the biggest problem would be the affect  heart rate and breathing on these aspects of the game.....JMO
Mike

[David Lott]

This post is a perfect example of how most golfers overestimate their abilities.

Forget the length, the hazards and even the mystique.

You have to putt, and the pros are happy if their approach putts leave them 4-6 feet in many cases. They are happy if their chips put them on the proper side of the hole. You won't do this things as well as most, and your short putts will be more difficult.

Unless you have consistently successful experience on very fast, difficult greens, with pro championship pin placements, and under great pressure, fogedabautait.

There are very, very few golfers that can hold up on these greens for 18 holes. Regardless of your handicap.

Anyone who breaks 100 will be quite happy, regardless of handicap.

[Doug Siebert]

Pressure is irrelevant David, the question wasn't what you would shoot IN THE MASTERS, it was what would you would shoot at ANGC as it played today?  To me, that means going out there next Tuesday and playing the same setup with a couple buddies and an ANGC member, with no one watching other than maybe some groundscrew and the occasional other golfers.

Why should I be under any pressure, unless I'm worried what the maintenance guys and squirrels think of my play?

[David Lott]

ok--delete the pressure, you still have to chip those tight lies and putt those greens.

also, nearly all pressure comes from inside. i think nearly everyone who plays augusta national, except perhaps some of the members, feels pressure when they play there. if you do not, you are a better man than me for sure.

i once spent four hours just sitting and watching people tee off at the old course. some of the tightest swings you ever saw, including two whiffs. most of that came from pressure. some of these guys were duffers, but a lot were not.

i still say most "good" golfers--except the very best single digit players--would have a hard time getting it under 100 as augusta national played saturday.

[Doug Siebert]

Oh sure, when I step onto the first tee of TOC I feel a few butterflies because I know its a big deal and I don't play there every day, but not enough that I choke on the shot and kill someone on the Himalayas.  I'm sure I'd feel some tightness on the first tee at ANGC and maybe here and there around the course -- probably the tee shot on 12, and the second shot if I'm in any kind of position to go for 13 or 15, because I've seen those shots on TV since I was a kid and they have the most black and white definition between success and failure due to the water.  Maybe 16 if the pin Masters Sunday position, only because I've always thought that pin would play perfectly to my draw, I can see myself dragging a 7 iron toward that pin and rolling left and falling down that slope right towards the flag  But if I failed I'm dropping another ball or two until I got it to work, even if I can't count the score, just so I'd know I can do it!

But random stuff like the tee shot on 8 or the approach to 14 don't have enough special meaning for me that I'm going to agonize over them any.  Maybe I'd treat the 18th a bit specially if only because I always like to leave big name course with some good memories, especially if the first 17 were harder on me than I'd have liked!

Certainly its not like every shot is a pressure cooker like it is for a Masters competitor.  If I throw away a shot or two doing something dumb, that's no biggie, I have a lot bigger margin for error to leave the course satisfied with my play than Tiger does

[Glenn Spencer]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if you put a gun to my head and said "Where do you think your best round of golf would come". My answer would be in front of people and in a pressure situation. I rarely play well when out with my buddies screwing around. I would imagine everyone is the same way, but apparently by the posts, that is not the case.

David Lott,

Do you really think David Ober would be happy shooting 22 shots higher than John Kelly? Do you think he would walk off that course and say that he played well? The golf course is not THAT hard. The professionals are amazing at making birdies and shooting low scores when they are comfortable. Expectations play a big part in a professional shooting 83. They get down and their mind starts to wander. It is only human, just because a professional rings up 83 doesn't mean that an amateur would shoot 98.

[Doug Siebert]

Glenn, to perform well you have to have enough pressure to care, but not enough you fold.  Where that line lies is quite different for different people.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

This post is a perfect example of how most golfers overestimate their abilities.

Anyone who breaks 100 will be quite happy, regardless of handicap.

AGREED.

Throw in the pressure and a few beaned Patrons off the tee and that number might soar.  

Throw in the COLD temperatures and the HIGH winds, combined with firm, fast conditions and you might need a calculator.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

The pressure and beaned patrons are irrelevant, because the question was what would you shoot at ANGC as it played today (Saturday) not what would you shoot if a typographical error resulted in you getting an invitation to play in the event itself!

Besides, while the patrons would hurt me due to putting more pressure on myself not looking foolish, beaning them would help me keep it in play so I think overall it might be a wash

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn, to perform well you have to have enough pressure to care, but not enough you fold.  Where that line lies is quite different for different people.

Well said and point taken.