Winged Foot's 36 v. Blackwolf Run's 36

[PThomas]

I found a thought-provoking comment from Jim Finegan on this the other day:  he stated that "WF would be lucky to have a 36-hole complex the likes of Blackwolf Run."

thoughts?  esp from those who have played all 72 holes ....I have not played WF - yet! - but I can say that the 36 at BR are darn good...certainly trememdous challenging, but beautiful, memorable, etc.......

[Joe Andriole]

Except for the superior practice facilities in Kohler this seems a silly comparison

[Andy Troeger]

Would be an interesting comparison for someone who has seen all of these courses. I haven't seen WF either, but it would seem like the two complexes are very different in style and land.

The last seven holes on the Meadow Valleys and the entire River Course are awesome in my view. The River would be in my top five favorites personally.

[Andy Troeger]

There wasn't much of a response to this. I thought it was an interesting question...

[JESII]

It is an interesting question. Maybe the number of people seeing all four courses is quite small...

Of the four, I've only seen the West course at Winged Foot and I think it's awesome...if Blackwolf Run can get into the same conversation I'd say they have something special up there.

[PThomas]

There wasn't much of a response to this. I thought it was an interesting question...

I thought it was too Andy!

I wonder if it didn't get much response becausse those who have played all 4 disagree with Jim's opinion...

[George Pazin]

Matt's probably the only one who's seen 'em all, and he's not about to let BR beat the man-sized NY metro courses.

 

[Andy Troeger]

There wasn't much of a response to this. I thought it was an interesting question...

I thought it was too Andy!

I wonder if it didn't get much response becausse those who have played all 4 disagree with Jim's opinion...

Given this group, a little disagreement has never stopped most posters!    

I've been staying silent because its unfair to compare when I've only seen WFW on TV, but hopefully to generate further discussion, I will say that when I saw BWR River on TV my first impression was...WOW, I need to play there. WFW isn't as impressive visually without being able to see the subtlety to it. You also can't understand the green contours from TV. I'd love to play WF too, don't get me wrong, but its not especially likely anyway.

Only thing I can say is the reciprocal of JES...if WF is as good as the River at Blackwolf Run then they're all in special company. Meadow Valleys again is no slouch either.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Matt's probably the only one who's seen 'em all, and he's not about to let BR beat the man-sized NY metro courses.

 

I've seen them all.  This is an apples to oranges comparison.  One is a cohesive golf club with two on site golf courses and the other is a resort where the courses are on totally different property in location and terrain.

That said, WS has a course with salmon running up river and another with lake front vistas on every hole.  The variety and scenery is astounding. The golf is all world as well. I'm not the greatest fan of Whistling Straits.  It has great par 3's (as does WF) but its artificial look is tiring after a while and I think overall The Ocean Course is a better golf course. Winged Foot is an unrelenting test of golf but The East has some of the best short holes among the two venues and especially the great par 3 14th and the volcano hole after it.

I'll take Bandon Dunes for 36.  

[Phil McDade]

I think Paul's original query had to do w/ the two Kohler-based courses -- Blackwolf Run's River Course and Meadows Valley course. Whistling Straits is paired with the Irish Course, up the ways a bit north of Sheboygan, near the tiny burg of Haven. The Straits course borders the big lake, while the Irish course is set back from the lake. Both are almost totally, articifial constructs. The River course sits on some very good land, and utilizes the river to good effect. I think the Meadows suffers quite a bit in comparison to the River course; the section around the lake is quite artificial, and in some ways I think the Meadows is pointlessly penal. I do like the par 3 there with the enormous green, though (blanking on which hole it is.)

For what it's worth, the River course came under some pretty severe criticism from several of the top golfers when it hosted the US Women's Open several years back. I think the criticism focused on awkward tee shots and the unforgiving topography of some of the greens played at Open speeds.

[Steve Lapper]

I've played all 6 courses mentioned (4 at WS & WFW, WFE). I'd agree 1000% with Geoff Childs and add that the green complexes on both WF courses vastly rival those found anywhere at the Wisconsin resort. They are more interesting, allow for fewer misjudgments of approach, and contain more subtle and frequent undulation. The fairways and tee shots are certainly more scenic and beautiful than any sights on a Westchester parkland setting, but several of the tee shots at Blackwolf are inhibited and chuted by trees that ring artificial. Surrounding water hazards found there don't have that feel and work very well to define the routing and degrees of difficulty. Winged Foot doesn't have much of that distraction, save for a very few holes, but the course design and premium of subtle placement is much higher in Westchester than Wisconsin.

[JESII]

Paul Thomas,

In what context was that statement by Mr. Finnegan?

[PThomas]

Paul Thomas,

In what context was that statement by Mr. Finnegan?

he was referring to the 36 at BR, which does NOT include Whistling Straits

that is all I know

[Phil McDade]

I wonder if Mr. Finegan was taking into consideration the American Club, which is affiliated with the two Kohler courses (they run package deals). The American Club is pretty much regarded as one of, if not the, premeir hotels in Wisconsin (whatever that's worth...), and they have day spas and whatnot to pamper the guests. It's where the PGA put up most of the pros when the PGA was held at the Straits, and where the women stayed during the women's US Open at the River course.