[Paul_Turner]

17th Ulverston

[A.G._Crockett]

So if we build a golf course, replete with bunkers and greens and tees and so forth, on top of a site that was a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the golf course becomes natural, not artifice, somehow.

On the other hand, if we build ruins on the course that mimic a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the ruins ARE and remain artifice.

Hmm...
Interesting standards.

[Jason McNamara]

So if we build a golf course, replete with bunkers and greens and tees and so forth, on top of a site that was a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the golf course becomes natural, not artifice, somehow.

On the other hand, if we build ruins on the course that mimic a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the ruins ARE and remain artifice.

Well, where do you stand on the issue of fake vs. real waterfalls?

[A.G._Crockett]

So if we build a golf course, replete with bunkers and greens and tees and so forth, on top of a site that was a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the golf course becomes natural, not artifice, somehow.

On the other hand, if we build ruins on the course that mimic a farm or battlefield or railway or whatever, the ruins ARE and remain artifice.

Well, where do you stand on the issue of fake vs. real waterfalls?

I am waterfall-neutral.
 

I can't imagine playing a course just to see a waterfall, but I can't imagine avoiding a course because of one either.  

It's a struggle to remember sometimes that the entire golf course is imposed on a landscape, but it is.  I try not to get my panties in too much of a knot over waterfalls.  Don't care either way.

[Tom Roewer]

I don't have a picture, but that phallic thing to the right of the cross bunkers on #18 @ Gleneagles Kings Course is pretty imposing. I forget what the caddies said it was?    

[ChipRoyce]

I seem to remember some random Mayan ruins on an RTJ course down in Cancun Mexico on a course called "Pok To Pok"

[paul cowley]

I think authenticity is an important part of whether a ruin works.

One great attribute that separates golf courses from other playing fields is that they have far fewer boundaries or limitations in terms of creativity and are therefore able to reflect what's unique and special in any particular environment or setting.

Sometimes, the history and culture of an area can be an important part of the unique identity and a golf course can help to reflect that.  For instance, would St. Andrews be quite as special without the setting right at the edge of the ancient town, but was instead out in some rural pasture 5 miles away?   As it is, who can walk up the 18th hole along

Old Tom's shop, or along the railway on 16, and not feel a sense of place and history.

At its best, that's what any type of ruin should accurately reflect and convey.  

We have enough artifice in the world.  

Mike .....AG correctly states that golf courses, even ones  that are constructed to look natural, are all artifice.

But I would rather comment on my own requirements are for what a 'ruin' or any other hardscape element that is inserted as part of the design.....and part is the key word here as these elements have to be part of the strategy of the hole, not just decoration.....[like the windmill at NGLA .
The walls at North Berwick, or the road hole, or even the foundation of the R&A, all come into play as part of the holes makeup. All the hardscape elements I have designed incorporate this strategy as an integral part of the hole, and is one which I feel gives the holes more interest, from both a  visual and a playability aspect, and and an aesthetic one too.....which is what good golf design is all about, or at least tries to be.

I can suffer all sorts of artifice as long as its relevant and part of the strategic fabric of the design.


 

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

All the hardscape elements I have designed incorporate this strategy as an integral part of the hole, and is one which I feel gives the holes more interest, from both a  visual and a playability aspect, and and an aesthetic one too.....which is what good golf design is all about, or at least tries to be.

I can suffer all sorts of artifice as long as its relevant and part of the strategic fabric of the design.

Paul,

Do you have any good pics of the 7th at The Patriot, I have always loved that little hole.  The incorporation of the hardscape makes it a very memorable little hole that otherwise would probabaly be lost in the jumble of memories of par 3's that I have played in my life.

I could go back myself and see if I can find any, but I wondered if you had any images.  I am sure yours would be better than mine.

[J_McKenzie]

Turboe,

Per your request, here is a picture of the par-3 7th taken during grow-in.  



This short hole, 148 yards from the back tee, would be a fine one shotter without the wall as the green is narrow and sits at an angle to the line of play, plus it is well protected by the bunker in front.  But as Paul states in his previous post, this wall gives the hole incredible interest, adds to the aesthetics and since it's in play, creates a whole new set of shot options.  Without the wall, a shot that goes long would simply be either in high grass or out of bounds, or in a bunker if one was added to take the place of the wall.

John

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

John,

Good to hear from you, I havent talked to you in a while, I hope all is going well with you.

I love the 7th.  One day when no one was around I hung out on that green for about 1/2 hour hitting all kinds of shots.  Including as you can guess many where I stymied the ball up against (or nearly) the wall and played shots off the wall back onto the green.  I probably tried 20 different shots off the wall, but never more successfully than my second shot that ended up about 6" from the hole.

I just think it is a neat little hole in a corner of the property that otherwise wouldnt have as much interest without the hardscape.

It has been awhile since I have been out there at The Patriot, I need to get back out there one of these days.  I heard the first pro left there last year sometime.  You dont happen to know who the current one is there do you?

[paul cowley]

Turboe my man....it is good to hear from you too.

If I can add to what John has stated, I would say that the photo posted is taken from just off the green of the previous hole and the actual play angle is more right to left. The wall is on a two lane road right of way. Anything over the wall is OB.
Turboe.....since this photo was taken we have added a bunker greenside right and have extended the wall around the tee area and have added a ruined chimney from what was probably left after the original circa 1880's lake house estate burned down a few years back ....we might add more walls around the entire area as it helps deter night traffic.

We have also finished the new back tee on the hole and it now plays from 165 yds and with OB only three ft from the green on its entire right to left side it can be a little dicey.....but more than anything its a fun and memorable par three.

We have also added four new back tees on other holes....including one across the road on 18 to bring it lenght up to 570 yds and allow the split fairway strategy to be in effect.

Not sure who the new pro is but as always you are more than welcome there [AG too]....call me or John.

Hell, I might even come along and caddy .  

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Hell, I might even come along and caddy .  

Caddy my *ss, you're playing!  Although I suppose now that there are actually other people out there and houses with people in them I cant be shooing the black powder gun this time.  Darn it!!

By the way did you ever get out to Musgrove Mill?

[paul cowley]

Turboe ....no I never have....not that I don't want to as I have heard very good things about the course. Today I played for the first time since Sept....not well I might add, hence the offer to caddy.

But I will play with you given the chance and I can still probably shoot a musket ball or two....I'll just tell them that we are from the State Historical Division and are re-enacting something or other.

Hey....I will offer to caddy for Cirba if we can get him down to play the course...you and him and me and I'll really shotgun it off.

Remember this is the same man who converted to The Donald.....this should be a cakewalk

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

If I come down there, you're playing dude.  

If you're hoping to woo me, the Patriot better have those little lobster salads and mimosas out for us at lunch.  

[paul cowley]

Paul,

If I come down there, you're playing dude.  

If you're hoping to woo me, the Patriot better have those little lobster salads and mimosas out for us at lunch.  

Mike, you're on....but I get choice of weapons and food and beverage....I don't know where to find little lobsters that aren't illegal and have you ever tasted a mimosa leaf?
Trust me you don't want to go there, no matter what  dressing.

[SB]

On the front side of Hudson National next to a green (5th?), you walk through the ruins of what I was told was a clubhouse for a course that used to be on the site.  I thought it was used exceptionally well, as you walk down an old staircase from the old building.  Pretty cool.

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