600yd reachable at Riviera

[Doug Ralston]

Can you believe 1/3 of the players reached in two?

I am not a person who approves of limiting people's right to buy whatever equipment they desire. So what other solution is available to limit the decline in value of today's courses?

My suggestion is one often spoken of negatively here. That is, to design courses that cut down on the value of length, mainly by taking the driver out of players hands at the tee.

I know you would hate a layup on a par-5. But I can imagine a really good one; one that has some range and a concommitant variety of possible second shots [perhaps including a reachable, but probably not].

I these another option that this kind of thing, or taking away people's rights to equipment?

Doug

PS: Just noticed, I have reached 'full membership'!

[Brad Klein]

Only five players got there onto the green all day at Riviera's 17th. I believe they stated that 1/3 went for it. Slight difference, though your point is valid, namely that par5s are virtually obsolete on Tour.

[Doug Ralston]

Brad;

No just on the PGA. I have watched 10 handicaps reach 'long' par-5s. The equipment upgrades have reached such a level that only arthritic old men like myself hit 200 yd drivers.

How many PGA memebers reached from 600 yds here in 1960, I wonder? Any?

Doug

[Gary Slatter]

I realy liked the way the 10th hole played. Maybe if the last 300 yards of every par five played like that hole it might make it pretty exciting.  Thurston was 12 under on the par 5s.

[Jfaspen]

Personally, I think it's ok..  It took Phil M, one of the long hitters on tour a great drive and a world-class 4 wood to reach the green..  Frankly, I think the tiger should be given a reward for his length and this hole seemed to reward those willing to risk a long fairway wood shot.

[Matt_Cohn]

Jeff,

Not to be difficult, but, what was the risk taken?

[TEPaul]

Of course it will be impossible to know but I would be very interested to see what these tour players today would do trying to hit Pine Valley's #15 in two. With it's new back tee it may be a bit more than 600 yards now and it is gradually uphill all the way as well, and there's more danger and "iffiness" around its green-end than Riviera's #17.

[Jfaspen]

Jeff,

Not to be difficult, but, what was the risk taken?

I guess just taking from my own playing experience..  If I'm 274 away from a hole.. i can take an 8 iron and know I'll have about 120 left.. Odds are I won't miss the fairway, won't chunk/thin it..

I could also take a 3 wood and make a push to hit it about 250, but i run a big risk of hitting a pull hook or topping it..

I'm nowhere near pro level, but for me, it's a risk to go for it.. maybe not for Phil..  ALthough I still think that he's bringing more trouble into play by going for the green as opposed to laying up to a good yardage

[Bob_Huntley]

I played Riviera back in the the early 1970s with some very good players, none of whom came close to putting it on the 17th. Persimmon clubs and wound balata just didn't do it.

I can't remember the the year, but I do remember well when Dave Stockton was paired in the final round with Sam Snead. He pulled his drive slightly left on the uphill slope, he had 237yards to the green, whopped a three wood on and two putted for par to win. Today, Charles Howell 111, a delightful young man, hits a pitching wedge over the green. The game has changed...and not for the better.


Bob

[Rick Shefchik]

My first thought was similar to Gary's -- #10 has plenty of length, because the green is so diabolically designed. Put it anywhere but in the right spot, and it's all you can do to make 4, no matter how long you are.

But after reading Bob's post, I have to question the ultimate wisdom of redesigning every green to make the game harder for the long hitters. The rest of us play these courses a lot more often than they do. It comes back to the same question we always kick around here: why alter brilliant golf courses for the .01% of elite players?

Either institute a tour ball so the courses play the way they used to, or get used to watching pros turn par 5's into par 4s. I really don't think there's another good answer.

[Tim Gavrich]

The fact that the fairways and greens were firmer than they have been in recent memory had much to do with the inflated driving distances this week. I don't believe that 17 at Riviera has been particularly reachable this week was because of the F&F conditions.  I'm not accusing anone of trying to have it both ways, but having "proper" (that is to say, Firm/Fast) fairway conditions is bound to increase driving distances.

I see this shortening of golf courses in much the same way as I see the issue of Global Warming.  Yes, it's a concern, but it is often overblown.  I happen to believe that advances in physical training account for the distance increases.  Back in the day, you had to be a big, "naturally strong" person in order to hit the ball a long way.  Today, we have players like Camilo Villegas, Charles Howell III, and many others, who are rather slight of build but very long of drive.

The major fact, in my opinion, is that the biggest increase is not in how far the longest players hit the ball.  Rather, it is in the percentage of players who hit the ball so far.  Lest we forget, John Daly was hitting 340 yard drives (as at least a dozen Tour stars do now) in 1991.  But, it wasn't deemed a problem because he was the only player who hit the ball so far.  Now, a lot of people hit it that far, so the Tour has (unfortunately) serviced this happening by playing golf courses that favor the longest hitters.  As we saw at Brown Deer Park last year, both shorter (Pavin) and longer (Lickliter) hitters had chances to win.  The bombers don't overpower the better, shorter courses, but the pea-shooters have little advantage at the longer, more wide-open venues.  This is why Shinnecock was so great a venue for the US Open in 2004, and why Merion will not be easy in 2013.

When Jim Furyk is #2 in the world, I don't believe we need to be in Panic Mode for the state of our sport, on the professional or amateur level.

Phew, there's my scatterbrained take on the ball-hysteria.

[Andrew Thomson]

whats wrong with CH III hitting wedge over the green?

The 18th still stood up to the field reasonably well, and who cares how the pros play it anyway?

[Matthew Hunt]

Brad;

No just on the PGA. I have watched 10 handicaps reach 'long' par-5s. The equipment upgrades have reached such a level that only arthritic old men like myself hit 200 yd drivers.

How many PGA memebers reached from 600 yds here in 1960, I wonder? Any?

Doug

I played against a 14 year old who put a 9-I second over the back of a par-5 in a schools match!!!

[Jim Sweeney]

Doug:

I have no problem with forcing a lay up from the tee on a par 5 or 4 hole so long as it is an interesting shot.

Neither would I want a steady diet of it. The key, IMO, is diversity. Force the player to hit a particular shot on one hole; give him options on the next. Force him to lay up then make a choice on the second. How about a reachable par five with a forced lay up from the tee? Changing the pace this way would require the golfern to keep his head in the game.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just to put this is a perspective, I recall Jim Colbert telling me in 1984 (as defending Colonial champ) that the 600 yard 11th at Colonial in Ft. Worth was becoming reachable. As a shorter hitter, he did it practice rounds, but was afraid to do it in the real tourney, although he might if he needed to catch up on Sunday.

While I don't doubt that new clubs and balls add distance, I also wonder if their ability to straighten shots makes tour pros more apt to bomb the long shots just as much as the distance they add.

[TEPaul]

RickS:

I think I've finally figured out the best angle to come into that wonderful little 10th green. It's way over to the left on the 9th somewhere but unfortunately they've gone and put bushes and trees and cart paths in the way.

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom:

Left is still better than right. My hat is off to CHIII for missing where he had to miss. That shot off the cart path was a hell of a lot easier than the flop from the right rough. (He should have hit 8-iron from the cart path instead of wedge, but that's another matter...)

[Doug Ralston]

Jim Sweeney;

Thank you. I agree 100%. We do not need to take driver out of player's hands on every par-4 and par-5. But I think there needs to be more of those holes.

As a short hitter myself, I have few [or none] opportunities to go for par-5's in two, and certainly no par-4's in one. But I do not object to those opportunities as a reward for that ability. Just also make medium and long irons [or hybrids, obvious] come out of the bag occasionally.

Seeing Tiger at Hoylake made many say length isn't proving to be as important as 'we doomsayers' claimed. But it should be remembered that he hits his 3-wood 80yd or more further than I hit my drivers  . That was NOT a short course, Tiger was just a ball-stinging maniac! [He replaced our bemoaned driver/wedge with 3-wood/wedge ..... or even 5-wood/wedge]

Doug