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Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
World Atlas eclectic 18
« on: January 13, 2007, 12:21:15 PM »
Early editions of the World Atlas of Golf included 'Elements of greatness - a classic course', 18 holes from courses around the world.  This section disappeared many years ago, for a variety of reasons.  

These were the holes:

1. R St George's 445 yards par 4
2. Scioto 436 yards par 4
3. Durban CC 513 yards par 5
4. Baltusrol Lower 194 yards par 3
5. Mid Ocean 433 yards par 4
6. Royal Melbourne Composite 428 yards par 4***
7. Cajuiles 195 yards par 3^^^
8. Pine Valley 327 yards par 4
9. Muirfield 504 yards par 5
Out 3,405 yards par 36

10. Muirfield Village 441 yards par 4
11. The Country Club 445 yards par 4'''
12. Augusta National 155 yards par 3
13. Harbour Town 358 yards par 4
14. St Andrews Old 567 yards par 5
15. Oakmont 453 yards par 4
16. Carnoustie 248 yards par 3
17. Cypress Point 393 yards par 4
18. Pebble Beach 548 yards par 5
In 3,608 yards par 36
Total 7,083 yards par 72

***Routing of Composite Course at that time.  West Course #6
^^^ Now called Casa de Campo
''' Composite hole made up for US Open of short par 4 and par 3 - don't know their numbers.  

Given the wisdom of so many on this site, would you like to suggest a world-wide-based eclectic 18 to display a wide variety of styles of architecture, old and new, all of it great architecture, and making a course that you would enjoy playing on your computer if you cannot fund the world tour to play the holes for real!  You may not have more than one hole from any course, each hole must retain its place on the course, and I should like to suggest that no architect should appear more than once, although that did not hold true for WAofG - MacKenzie was there more than once.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 02:05:54 PM »
Mark:

Very fun topic. Three choices from UK courses I've played.

-- Boat of Garten's 15th. A 307 yard par 4, no bunkers, with a very deep depression about 200 yards from the tee. I've written on a previous thread that it can played (by an average golfer) as something of a 7 iron-7 iron hole. Or you drive into the depression -- it's only 11o yards to the middle of the green -- but it's totally blind and steeply uphill. Or you can try to drive over the depression, but it's at least a 220-230-yard carry. The green is very shallow, only 24 yards deep, forcing even more thought into the choice off the tee. Not the Boat's best hole, but its most electic.

-- Crail Balcomie's 7th, a 347 yard par 4. Somewhat similar to the opening hole at Prestwick -- a rock wall is OB right for two-thirds of the hole, and it is right next to the fairway. There is a huge falloff along the entire left side of the fairway, and the green -- bunkered right and back-left -- sits near the bottom of the depression. To catch the falloff and boost your ball forward requires a drive of about 270 yards. A fun hole, because the tee shot is so unnerving, as the wall/OB, deep falloff, and no sight of the green leaves one uncertain about the tee ball's prospects.

-- Machrihanish's 6th -- one of the many great par 4s on Mach's front nine, it's the quirkiest, with huge mounds, deep depressions, a solitary pit bunker, and fairway that's about as non-linear as it gets awaiting the golfer on the tee. A straight hole of 315 yards that looks anything but straight from the tee. The green sits in a bit of a hollow with two pit bunkers flanking left and right front.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 02:17:45 PM »
Firstly let me state I'm a real fan of Royal St.Georges and the 1st is a good opening hole but the best opener in the world?? It's not even the best hole at Sandwich. #1 at Machrihanish takes some beating in the UK. #1 at Prestwick is also a good opening hole but an absolutely stonking 19th.

Phil - #7 at Crail Balcomie is a good fun hole, but again not the best hole on the course.
Cave Nil Vino

Ian Andrew

Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 02:39:00 PM »
18 architects -18 courses - 18 great holes - par 71
(***I have never been south of the equator)

1st Garden City - Travis
2nd Pine Valley - Crump
3rd Royal County Down – George Coombe
4th Banff Springs - Thompson (Devil's cauldren)
5th Merion (East) - Wilson
6th The Creek Club - Raynor (punchbowl)
7th San Francisco GC - Tillinghaust (The duel hole)
8th Crystal Downs - MacKenzie/Maxwell par 5
9th Friar's Head - Coore and Crenshaw

10th Riviera - George Thomas
11th St. Andrew’s – Nature/Robertson (Eden)
12th Sunningdale - (old) Park/Colt (Bottle)
13th Gleneagles (Kings) - Braid (Braid's Brawest)
14th Royal Dornock - Morris (Foxy)
15th North Berwick - Strath (the Redan)
16th Shinnecock - Flynn
17th The National Golf Links of America – C.B. MacDonald (Peconic)
18th Pebble Beach – Egan

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 02:55:05 PM »
When I see the words "eclectic 18" I don't think of the 10th at Riviera. Instead I think of things like the 3rd at Astoria, the floating green and bunker complex at Coeur d'Alene, the black mining slag bunkers and waste areas at Old Works with the 6th playing between two high rows of piled black mining slag.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2007, 03:08:21 PM »
When I see the words "eclectic 18" I don't think of the 10th at Riviera. Instead I think of things like the 3rd at Astoria, the floating green and bunker complex at Coeur d'Alene, the black mining slag bunkers and waste areas at Old Works with the 6th playing between two high rows of piled black mining slag.


Garland,
Was that eclectic or eccentric? ;D
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 03:09:10 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2007, 03:25:13 PM »
When I see the words "eclectic 18" I don't think of the 10th at Riviera. Instead I think of things like the 3rd at Astoria, the floating green and bunker complex at Coeur d'Alene, the black mining slag bunkers and waste areas at Old Works with the 6th playing between two high rows of piled black mining slag.


Garland,
Was that eclectic or eccentric? ;D

Well he also added the words "wide variety or architectural styles". I saw Ian's post as more of the same. Ian even ends with the same hole. Perhaps Mark can clarify what he wants. I thought of mentioning the dell hole, but John Kirk describes the 3rd at Astoria as a do it yourself dell hole. I.e., if you hit your drive over the dune on either self, your approach shot is just like the tee shot on the dell hole, minus the rock.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2007, 04:24:01 PM »
Ian - That is an outstanding list

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2007, 04:32:50 PM »
That is a good list, Ian.

Not to be picky, but it was Herbert Fowler who stretched Pebble Beach's 18th to its current par 5 length.
jeffmingay.com

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2007, 05:59:13 PM »
Firstly let me state I'm a real fan of Royal St.Georges and the 1st is a good opening hole but the best opener in the world?? It's not even the best hole at Sandwich. #1 at Machrihanish takes some beating in the UK. #1 at Prestwick is also a good opening hole but an absolutely stonking 19th.

Phil - #7 at Crail Balcomie is a good fun hole, but again not the best hole on the course.

Mark:

Agreed; I think nearly every hole proceeding it is probably a better hole, but the 7th is really, really electic and strategically fun. Not many holes like it. I think Mark was looking for electic-ness, not best.

Ian Andrew

Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2007, 06:27:49 PM »
Jeff,

Be picky, correct is more important than being politically correct.  :)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2007, 06:45:11 PM »
18 architects -18 courses - 18 great holes - par 71
(***I have never been south of the equator)

1st Garden City - Travis
2nd Pine Valley - Crump
3rd Royal County Down – George Coombe
4th Banff Springs - Thompson (Devil's cauldren)
5th Merion (East) - Wilson
6th The Creek Club - Raynor (punchbowl)
7th San Francisco GC - Tillinghaust (The duel hole)
8th Crystal Downs - MacKenzie/Maxwell par 5
9th Friar's Head - Coore and Crenshaw

10th Riviera - George Thomas
11th St. Andrew’s – Nature/Robertson (Eden)
12th Sunningdale - (old) Park/Colt (Bottle)
13th Gleneagles (Kings) - Braid (Braid's Brawest)
14th Royal Dornock - Morris (Foxy)
15th North Berwick - Strath (the Redan)
16th Shinnecock - Flynn
17th The National Golf Links of America – C.B. MacDonald (Peconic)
18th Pebble Beach – Egan

Ian

You better give Dornoch its propers before Rihc wakes up!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2007, 08:43:44 PM »
Ian suggested this list a year or two back, and I thought it was quite a bit better than Pat Ward-Thomas's original 18.

But, there should be a hole from Australia in there somewhere, and it should really be something from MacKenzie, and I hate to take out the 8th at Crystal Downs which is very deserving.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2007, 09:20:18 AM »
I'm sure Ward-Thomas knew he was entering a shooting gallery when he made his selection, but at least it continues to provoke thought, which is far better than producing an anodyne list.  It all becomes problematic when you have to take out a treasured hole from course A to make room for something else from course B and then take out yet another favourite from course B in order to accommodate something different from course A, by which time we have two consecutive par 3s!   Keep trying - we certainly need Australia represented, and what about Africa and Asia.  I think we ought to keep it up to date, too, so what has to go to make way for a Doak hole, a Coore-Crenshaw etc. etc.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:World Atlas eclectic 18
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2007, 02:15:52 PM »
Mark:

I think you should just take Ian's list, it's better if it is by one author and his is the best I've seen.  Then I will just have to coerce him to travel to Australia and New Zealand so maybe I can get a hole on it.  :)  I am not sure I can beat any of his holes by the numbers ... possibly the 12th at Ballyneal or Cape Kidnappers.

Ian is right to pick holes by different architects, but I think it's wrong to have geographical goals as well.  The 3rd at Durban CC makes a lot of lists because Ward-Thomas picked it and because Africa doesn't have a lot of candidates, but it is no match for the par fives on Ian's list, and the 3rd at Royal County Down is arguably better as well.

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