Who said you should be rewarded for just missing a hazard..

[John Kavanaugh]

I find myself near hazards with better angles to the green all the time.  I am just not so arrogant to claim that is where I aimed.  I will say that it is one of the great joys of the game to hit a shot close to disaster and end up in better shape than your opponent that striped one down the middle.

[John Kavanaugh]

Joe,

Just as I was getting ready to go to the course and have a few this hit me...I don't think any feature 270 yds out is an option, possibly a chance passing like two ships in the night..but an option, no.

[JR Potts]

John:  Shot angles mean rarely mean anything now and days.  As long as the greens don't resemble concrete, today's balls make angles insignificant in my opinion.  I can't tell you one time in the last 4 years where I've been worried about my angle of play.  Of course, there are other angles that I would have prefered, but they haven't impacted my play.

For the real elite player though, I think that they may take angles into consideration as they are trying to make their 7 iron from 195 yards.

[Geoffrey Childs]

John

Perhaps youu will like the leven hole at Yale (#6) as an example.  

Hug the creek on the left and you have an open clear shot into the green with no hazards in front of you and where you can easily bounce the ball in from well short of the green. Play out to the right and the shot becomes just about blind and over the length of a bunker that (was) no fun to try to play a recovery shot. The shot from the right is certainly doable with a shot that you can carry the proper distance but it is not nearly as easy for the average player.

One tends to try to stay left until that one time that you hit into the creek after which you play right and then closer and closer again until you hit it in the hazard.



old bunker

[John Goodman]

I had thought of Carnoustie 6 and a couple of holes from Kingsbarns, John, but then I got to thinking - I am always going to try to avoid the hazard.  I'm not good enough for it ever to be the right play for me to flirt with it - I'll take the inferior angle every time.  And that goes I think for most of the schmoes I play with too.  In other words, I think the principle you talk about exists, and is out there in some profusion, but I don't think it much impacts the play of the hole by the handicap player.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I think it is hilarious that I spent 35 years trying to hit it away from bunkers and water and now find out that I was all wrong.  Is this really true or just a bunch of intellectual gobble-tee-gook..Examples please.

John,

You have to view the issue in the context of risk/reward, and you have to view the issue in the dual context of match versus medal play.

Many golf holes are designed to reward risk takers who execute well, however, when the risk increases disproportionately, vis a vis, water, lost ball, OB, discretion may be the better part of valor, especially in medal play.

Over this past weekend I watched golfer after golfer hit specialty/recovery clubs out of bunkers.  Some were phenomenal shots, shots never contemplated by Donald Ross when he designed and constructed his fairway bunkers.

Had DR had an inkling of what was to come, he might have increased the height of the face of the bunker, either internally or externally to prevent these extractions.

Today, with hi-tech clubs, bunkers present less of a dilema to the golfer, hence their avoidance has been discounted.

But, it's been my limited experience that I'd prefer to hit an approach from the fairway as opposed to anywhere else.

One of my mottos is:  I never met a fairway that I didn't like.

[Bill_McBride]

Here's a good example - the 17th at NGLA.  Drive it to the safe right side of the fairway and have a semi-blind shot over a sandy berm where all you can see is the top of the flag.

Play a tee shot down the left side where you have to carry it 240 say in order to have a wide open shot into the green from left of the berm.

Oh, I forgot, that's not after WWII - but it is the essence of strategic design.  The closer you play to the hazard, be it a creek, or a bunker, or a waste area, the easier the angle or better the view of the target.

Whoops - just re-read this thread and see that Geoff Childs also cited a Leven type hole in post #28.  Just another example of great minds thinking alike, etc.  

[Scott Witter]

Ryan:

If I recall correctly, you are a very good player, not that it is essentially relevant to this but do you truly think golf is reduced to simply banging it off the tee and randomly taking what you get without any notion to playing angles?  It seems difficult for me to think, even without ever being there, that courses like NGLA, Pac Dunes, Hidden Creek, Old Sandwich, Boston Golf Club and many other great classic layouts across the US, that success could be had so carelessly even with the stupid lengths possible today.  We ARE speaking about other golfers besides you and the rest of those blessed between 0 and say 6 HC aren't we?  If this is the case and you DO really believe this across the board then you are far more skilled than I remember and you must be quite bored when you play just about anywhere

[Gary Slatter]

Aren't many Dick Wilson holes that way, the closer you are to a fairway bunker the better your line for the next shot? That's for normal golfers if the course has been lengthened. Many of Stanley Thompson's 3-shot holes set up that way too.

[Mike_Cirba]

John:  Shot angles mean rarely mean anything now and days.  As long as the greens don't resemble concrete, today's balls make angles insignificant in my opinion.  I can't tell you one time in the last 4 years where I've been worried about my angle of play.  Of course, there are other angles that I would have prefered, but they haven't impacted my play.

For the real elite player though, I think that they may take angles into consideration as they are trying to make their 7 iron from 195 yards.

You and Kavanaugh are obviously playing way too many midwestern whitebread courses that have the strategic complexity of "Pass the Pigs".  

[Scott Witter]

Mike Cirba:

Here here!!

[JR Potts]

Ryan:

If I recall correctly, you are a very good player, not that it is essentially relevant to this but do you truly think golf is reduced to simply banging it off the tee and randomly taking what you get without any notion to playing angles?

Yes.  For the most part.  I've played very few golf courses where this has not been the case.

It seems difficult for me to think, even without ever being there, that courses like NGLA, Pac Dunes, Hidden Creek, Old Sandwich, Boston Golf Club and many other great classic layouts across the US, that success could be had so carelessly even with the stupid lengths possible today.

When you get to hit 7 iron, at most, into every par 4 and 9 iron, at most, into every par 5, success can be had quite easily if a round is played without making a huge number.

We ARE speaking about other golfers besides you and the rest of those blessed between 0 and say 6 HC aren't we?

 All I ever speak for is me.  I'm not qualified to speak for any others.  

If this is the case and you DO really believe this across the board then you are far more skilled than I remember and you must be quite bored when you play just about anywhere

Rarely bored as I only hit the fairway about 50% of the time.  And I go for every green when I can.  I play and exciting and highly erratic game.  .

[JR Potts]

John:  Shot angles mean rarely mean anything now and days.  As long as the greens don't resemble concrete, today's balls make angles insignificant in my opinion.  I can't tell you one time in the last 4 years where I've been worried about my angle of play.  Of course, there are other angles that I would have prefered, but they haven't impacted my play.

For the real elite player though, I think that they may take angles into consideration as they are trying to make their 7 iron from 195 yards.

You and Kavanaugh are obviously playing way too many midwestern whitebread courses that have the strategic complexity of "Pass the Pigs".  

I don't care what course you play, strategic complexity has been totally undone by distance for those that can kill the ball.

I know, I know, Tiger proved that isn't totally true.  But take the greatness that is Tiger out of the equation and what are you left with on Tour?  A bunch of guys who care little about lines of play and more about whether they are going to hit 8 iron or 9 iron into the tucked pin on a 465 yard par 4.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ryan,

Once again, I think that talking about the .00001% of professional touring players is missing a larger point for the rest of us.

And yes, there are many courses out there where strategic complexity is nil, or where the courses are so lush and overwatered that a purely aerial game defeats any architectual interest.    

However, that's why we're talking here about the courses where those things still matter to most mortals.   I can guarantee you that if you play grip it and rip it at a course like Merion, for instance, you'll get murdered.   That was proven at last year's US Amateur, where the scoring average was something like 8-over for all the young limberbacks who launch the ball prodigious distances.   Ironically, I was there and it wasn't playing nearly as firm as it might have, and greens still yielded decent size ballmarks due to some recent rains.  

[JR Potts]

Well Mike, I guess your post is a perfect example as to why my wife needs to let me flee from her, my 2 1/2 year old, my 1 year old and my new law practice to go play some different types of golf courses.

That being said, I don't 100% agree with you as many bombers can still hit their 7 iron 190.  So who cares if I have to hit 2 iron 260 and then 7 iron 190 into a 450 yard hole?  

I'll give you a 85% agree rate strictly due to my igorance.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ryan,

Enjoy them, and spend lots of quality time with them...they grow up very, very quickly.  You won't regret it.

If you do get a pass to Philadelphia, please look me up.  

[JR Potts]

I appreciate it and will do so.  As long as you do the same when you are in Chicago.  I'll take you to some courses where you can really bomb it!    And then have to bomb it again to get home in regulation.    

Yes, I know, those are your favorite courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ryan,

Deal!  

[John Kavanaugh]

John:  Shot angles mean rarely mean anything now and days.  As long as the greens don't resemble concrete, today's balls make angles insignificant in my opinion.  I can't tell you one time in the last 4 years where I've been worried about my angle of play.  Of course, there are other angles that I would have prefered, but they haven't impacted my play.

For the real elite player though, I think that they may take angles into consideration as they are trying to make their 7 iron from 195 yards.

You and Kavanaugh are obviously playing way too many midwestern whitebread courses that have the strategic complexity of "Pass the Pigs".  

Mike,

What is the point of width in architecture if you are capable of hitting a driver 270 yds to a point next to a hazard at a consistant rate.  It is not whitebread or boring to aim for the safest area of a fairway and then hit the appropriate recovery or pin seeking second shot based on your accuracy rate.  It is you and not people like Ryan or me that claim to have lazer like driving ability...the so called .000001%.

I'm asking you again to give me an example of an 18th hole where you would challenge a hazard as opposed to finding the fairway when you need a birdie to qualify for something meaningful.  It is my contention that you will take the fairway everytime off of the tee and attempt to make birdie on the approach and putt.  Who knows..you have a 50% chance of missing it on the correct side next to the hazard anyway.  Please stop with the pop culture of misspent youths and discuss the subject at hand.

[John Kavanaugh]

Of course players take on hazards all the time.  I do it routinely though I am not good enough.  I am more concerned with having fun rather than scoring.  Besides, I rarely play with a pencil in my hand.  

The dreaded pencil insult rears its ugly head.  Isn't it a good idea to keep track of the bets on a hole by hole basis...I would think it might strain friendships if you don't write anything down.  Follow the money if you want to have fun.

[JESII]

John,

I think you are looking at this too literally. I would say it is near impossible for one side of a fairway to offer a full stroke advantage over an opposite side. Everything is fractional.

The cost of hitting it in the hazard you might flirt with is going to be 1/2 - 3/4 of a stroke. The sequence of shots you would have to hit from the other side of the fairway to make a par should total 1/2 - 3/4 of a stroke more difficult than a par would have been had you hit an ideal drive while challenging the hazard.

It should be more difficult to hit the green (at least in a favorable position) and continue from there.

Sean touched on the most important ingredient to make this work...firm ground.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
I know you told me that you've only read about 4 or 5 books in your lifetime.  Maybe it is time you read one more to help answer your question