[Anthony_Nysse]

I can tell you that our budget isn't far from that and though we have a good amount of fly mowing, we have nothing like they do. Plus they have bentgrass greens and at least for a couple years, I'm sure that they will be overseeding.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brad Klein]

Andy, Fallingwater was/is a bitch to maintain because the heating didn't work, the place leaked, and like every home FLW built it was very badly engineered. He was a great visionary, a great salesman, and a lousy building architect when it cme to everyday things like liveable, usable space.

[Jamey Bryan]

Chris...

This is very off topic, but it's always good to see a fellow wahoo on the board.  I lived in Atlanta for a while and was a member at Cherokee from '77 to '85 or so, Clem King is now our new head pro (for everybody else, Clem was the golf coach at UVA).

If you get far enough up I20, come see a great little Travis/Ross track that technologh doesn't seem to beat.

Jamey

[Chris Cupit]

Greg,

Fred Widicus was on the my team at UVA--he was an excellent player--is he still trying to play professionally?

James,

Please tell Clem King hello--he was the coach when I transferred to UVA--a great guy and the reason I transferred was largley because I wanted to play for him.

OK  for the slightly off topic portion of this thread--the maintnenance budget.  I checked with my super.  His name is Mark Hoban, he's a 2 time Supt. of the Year in Ga, served on the GGCSA board for over a decade and is a past president.  He was nominated for National Supt. of the Year in the early 1990's.  Prior to coming to my club he was 33 years at The Standard Club in Atlanta where I think he was one of the first to have an Audoban certified golf course in the Southeast region of the US.  He has also lectured numerous times at Mich. State on various turfgrass subjects, and yes, he even helps old ladies across the street!  His credentials are impeccable and he is certainly knowledgeable of maint. budgets in the Atlanta area (I don't think Eatonton GA would require higher budget numbers tha Atlanta).

Anyway, he remembers that the discussion of the annual budget at the Creek Club was actually in excess of $2M.  Now we were all talking to the construction foreman and not the super directly but that person seemed confident in what he was describing.  Also, this moring at a meeting I ran into another former GGCSA past president who has been the super at one of the most prestigious clubs in Atlanta for the past 10 years.  He too, had been told a budget number in excess of $2M.

Both supers were shocked at that number and neither could think of ANY 18 hole course in Atlanta that has a budget of $2M.  We mentioned Hawk's Ridge, Atlanta CC, Piedmont Driving Club, East Lake, Atlanta National, Peachtree, Druid Hills, etc... and neither super could imagine a budget for any of those clubs at the $2M level.

The one comment I heard from both can be paraphrased as,  "well, I guess you could spend that much, but you have to try and you have to not care."  Both supers would describe an 18 hole budget in excess of $1M as a very high end budget.  Their guess was that the (dis)honor of the highest Atlanta budget (for 18 holes) would maybe be in the $1.6M range to $1.75M

I know I've kinda been beating a dead horse here but I did want to double check and see if I had just been way off in my "outrage"!

[A.G._Crockett]

OK  for the slightly off topic portion of this thread--the maintnenance budget.  I checked with my super.  His name is Mark Hoban, he's a 2 time Supt. of the Year in Ga, served on the GGCSA board for over a decade and is a past president.  He was nominated for National Supt. of the Year in the early 1990's.  Prior to coming to my club he was 33 years at The Standard Club in Atlanta where I think he was one of the first to have an Audoban certified golf course in the Southeast region of the US.  He has also lectured numerous times at Mich. State on various turfgrass subjects, and yes, he even helps old ladies across the street!  His credentials are impeccable and he is certainly knowledgeable of maint. budgets in the Atlanta area (I don't think Eatonton GA would require higher budget numbers tha Atlanta).

Anyway, he remembers that the discussion of the annual budget at the Creek Club was actually in excess of $2M.  Now we were all talking to the construction foreman and not the super directly but that person seemed confident in what he was describing.  Also, this moring at a meeting I ran into another former GGCSA past president who has been the super at one of the most prestigious clubs in Atlanta for the past 10 years.  He too, had been told a budget number in excess of $2M.

Both supers were shocked at that number and neither could think of ANY 18 hole course in Atlanta that has a budget of $2M.  We mentioned Hawk's Ridge, Atlanta CC, Piedmont Driving Club, East Lake, Atlanta National, Peachtree, Druid Hills, etc... and neither super could imagine a budget for any of those clubs at the $2M level.

The one comment I heard from both can be paraphrased as,  "well, I guess you could spend that much, but you have to try and you have to not care."  Both supers would describe an 18 hole budget in excess of $1M as a very high end budget.  Their guess was that the (dis)honor of the highest Atlanta budget (for 18 holes) would maybe be in the $1.6M range to $1.75M

I know I've kinda been beating a dead horse here but I did want to double check and see if I had just been way off in my "outrage"!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that if Hawk's Ridge isn't spending $2m, then $2m is a LOT of money!  For those of you that haven't been there, Hawk's Ridge cuts pins into the tee boxes of the par threes so you can putt in case you ever have to wait to tee off.  They also ask you to leave divots on the tees alone and let the maintenance staff fill them.  Easily the most manicured course I've ever seen outside one in Augusta, GA., and if you're outspending them, then where would you put the money?

[Andy Doyle]

Andy, Fallingwater was/is a bitch to maintain because the heating didn't work, the place leaked, and like every home FLW built it was very badly engineered. He was a great visionary, a great salesman, and a lousy building architect when it cme to everyday things like liveable, usable space.

Brad:

That's probably true, but why does anyone but the person who lives there really care?  If somebody wants to live in an architectural masterpiece and doesn't mind the cost and hassle of the upkeep, why should that be an issue for anybody else?

Now, if it was a public building that was built and had to be maintained with my tax dollars, I'd be pissed.

I can't believe people are criticizing a course that's not even open yet based upon what they've heard about the maintenance budget.

Disclaimer:  I am not a member of the Creek Club.  A friend of mine who has a house at RP did join the club, and I hope to play it in the spring when he usually hosts a guy's weekend.

Andy

[Chris Cupit]

Andy,

I think the point about fallingwater or any other FLW design is this:  FLW was one of the greatest self promoters ever and would not hesitate to describe himself as an architectural genius.  A legitimate criticism of an architect, particualrly a self proclaimed genius of architecture, is whether or not the creation, no matter how unique or beautiful, actually functions.

I do believe the purchaser of fallingwater (a Dr. from PA?) was none too pleased with the functionality of FLW's masterpiece.

In fact, Fallingwater may even be on the historic register now, in which case your tax dollars are paying for the architect's mistakes.

Getting back to my original thread:

I have seen every hole and I think the course is bold and dramatic.  I have never seen greens that big, sloped or surrounded on multiple sides to that degree before.  The bunkers are very distinctive as well.  I think it would be a very fun course for a good golfer to play.

I applaud Jim Engh for a truly original and unique addition to Atlanta (actually 1 1/2 hours east) golf that I would describe as a sea of sameness.  So, thank you Jim Engh for the courage to be different.

I have just two criticisms:
1.  On the drive back while discussing the course it was hard for my group to remember individual holes.  I remember the first and last holes but the mounding, bunkers and greens did seem to blend together in our memory--I don't think that's a good thing.
2.  IF the maintenence budget is as high as we are discussing, I think it is a legitimate point of discussion re: the architecture of the course.  From Ross, MacKenzie, Thomas, Wethered & Simpson and almost all othres who have written on the subject, a key component of successfull architecture includes economy of maintenance.    

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I thought that The Creek Club at Reynolds would have a separate membership from the other courses there but I have been advised otherwise. They are all grouped together but there will be no access to The Creek from the Ritz hotel guests.I also discovered that about 2/3 of the residents are there full time. The non-equity refundable membership deposit is near 6 figures and the yearly dues are not outrageous.

[Mike_Young]

I thought that The Creek Club at Reynolds would have a separate membership from the other courses there but I have been advised otherwise. They are all grouped together but there will be no access to The Creek from the Ritz hotel guests.I also discovered that about 2/3 of the residents are there full time. The non-equity refundable membership deposit is near 6 figures and the yearly dues are not outrageous.

I hear basically the same..also they should announce their Pete Dye course this week or next....which I think will also be memebr only

[Andy Doyle]

Chris:

Even the best salesman in the world can't force the acceptance of something as an architectural masterpiece (see the Trump thread).  Fallingwater must have some architectural value.  Maybe this isn't a good example  - even though FLW has his own thread going elsewhere.

Maybe a better example is something that works well for the owner but has a high upkeep.  Take the "Privacy" - Tiger's  boat (can you call something 300 ft long a boat?).  Can you image what the nut is on that thing?  It's got to be an outrageous amount of money.  Even if I had his kind of money I don't think I would spend it in that way - I'd rent some big ass yacht the 1 or 2 times a year I wanted to go cruising.  

I just don't buy the trickle down effect - I think people are more realistic than that.  I go to the Master's practice rounds and marvel at ANGC.  But I'm also realistic enough with myself to know that I'll never be able to belong to a club that can look like that.  I get to play higher-end clubs once in a while - it's a real treat, but when I pay $40 I expect to get Brown's Mill.  I don't want to play on a goat ranch, but I'm not expecting to be able to practice my putting on the tees, either.

The more I look around, the more I think the problem for a golfer like me is the CCFAD model.  I don't want to pay $100+ so I can have a bag drop, free tees & ball marker, etc.  I want an interesting course that's in decent shape that I can play for ~$50 (think Wolf Creek in Atl).

Of course, now I'm talking about the far end of the spectrum from the Creek Club.  But, I'm hoping to play that one, too.  

Andy

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