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Padraig Dooley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« on: November 01, 2006, 05:19:07 AM »
MacKenzie talks about being disturbed after the opening of Cypress Point when the course was getting very little criticism. He came to the conclusion that it escaped criticism because of the outstanding natural beauty.

Do you find it strange when nobody criticises a certain course?

I find that great golf courses inspire strong emotions, creating feelings of love or hate.  
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 07:59:17 AM »
I walk off the 18th green of great courses dazed and a bit bewildered. That's the way I felt after playing TOC, PV, ANGC, N. Berwick, Sand Hills, Cuscowilla and others. Great courses grab you by the lapels and shake you until you start to rethink what you thought you knew about golf. They push you to reconsider your assumptions about what golf ought to be about. They hit you in the face with big questions that take a while to digest. It's a wonderful, special feeling.  

Not so great courses don't get under your skin in that way. They don't push you to ask the bigger questions. They tend to be just places where you play your game. Which, of course, can be plenty of fun. But that extra dimension is not there.

I'm sure others have very different responses to great courses. But mine is something like that.

Bob  




TEPaul

Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 08:16:10 AM »
Padraig:

Mackenzie's comments about CPC and his whole philosophy on creating controversy of opinion on golf holes or courses is a poser, no doubt.

But one can certainly point to the truth in his remarks by just looking at those great holes in the world that seem to be eternally enigmatic, controversial and still globally respected by all if not completely loved by all.

We're talking the likes of the famous Road Hole, or Riviera's #10, ANGC's #13, PV's #8, Shinnecock's #11, NGLA's #1 or #6 etc.

Do those holes have one thing in common in play? I think they do, and it's called a "wide scoring spectrum".

That fact alone of a golf hole, I think will often put it in that rare class of architecture that ends up passing the test of time forever and enduring pretty much as it is. They have become the virtual icons of golf and golf architecture. So we need to look very very carefully at them and particularly their nuances that have made them that way over such a long period of time. In those few holes is probably a good deal of the key to great golf course architecture.

Can or should an architect attempt to offer holes like that 18 times? Probably not because that might even wear out even the best golfer, and the enigmatic beat of what constitutes a great golf course in a general sense just goes on, doesn't it?  ;)

« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 08:24:18 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 08:24:56 AM »

Do those holes have one thing in common in play? I think they do, and it's called a "wide scoring spectrum".

That fact alone of a golf hole, I think will often put it in that rare class of architecture that ends up passing the test of time forever and enduring pretty much as it is.


Not only do they SEEM to have a "wide scoring spectrum", but the careful mathematical proof embedded in the famous TEP Conjecture proves that they do. ;D

Bob


TEPaul

Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 08:58:35 AM »
The 'famous "TEP Conjecture"'?

I hope one day that gets into the world of golf course and golf architecture jargon something like John Nash's "Game Theory" has gotten into the social sciences. I just hope I'm not quite so wacko as John Nash, despite the fact he really does have a "beautiful mind".  ;)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2006, 09:00:49 AM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 09:01:34 AM »
Was it CBM whose quote was something to the affect of controversial features being the best kind?

Having differing factions love and hate a specific feature should ensure it's continued existence.

Versus the reality that the political process of greens committees allows for the disfigurement. What a pity.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 09:49:28 AM »
Many of the great courses have controversial holes and features, but I'm not sure it follows that a course has to be controversial, to be a good course (or even a great one).  Someone can always find something "wrong" even with the best courses, if you get too much into what is "ideal" and stray from what the site had to offer.

Likewise, just because a hole or feature is controversial, does not necessarily mean it's good.  Some holes just aren't good.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 10:24:44 AM »
redanman,

Is that to say a course does not need one or two unbelievably great holes to make it great?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 12:07:06 PM »
So because a course has a disparity in the quality of its holes (eg: some great, some good, some less good) it might be subject to a lower overall perception because there are clear Achilles Heels holes. While a course with all good holes, but no stand out great holes, might be viewed as having no weaknesses and therefore gain higher acclaim. This, even though the best hole in the second scenario might not be better than the lesser holes on the first course.

That is an interesting perspective of human nature, and I'm not suggesting it is wrong, just interesting.

I personally think for a course to reach the highest level of consideration it must have a couple holes that really blow you away. It can't have gaping weak links, but it must have the 16th at CPC (no, I have never been there but I'll take everyone's word for it) or the 15th at Pine Valley or the 5th or 18th at Merion.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 02:39:46 PM »
You know, when I was typing that my eyes went crossed. that's usually a good sign I'm overdoing it.

Anyway I get your point, the great courses have pretty freakin' strong worst holes....right?

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 04:18:26 PM »
Thinking about it...

Has Muirfield ever been critisized for something... that was what struck me when I walked the course... so great, so simple, yet so complicated...

Nothing really corky... (especially when N Berwick WL is so close), nothing to critisize... just totally great

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is There Something Wrong with a Course if it's not Criticised
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 04:23:02 PM »
I agree with Tom Doak that one can find something to criticize on just about any course.  
An example:  When I played the Sand Hills GC the greens were extremely fast, it was very windy, and the front portions of the greens are quite sloped.  If one hit it above the hole one had a great likelyhood that one would put off the green on many holes.  This made approach shots very difficult for the lesser players as most approach shots have an uphill inclination.  I witnessed no less than 10 times people putting off the green.  It became a circus for these players and later the course was highly criticized.  

Is there something wrong with SH - I think not!

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