[Patrick_Mucci]

Is Length squeezing the variety out of club selection ?

Is the game becoming "Drive", "Wedge"  "Putt's"  ?

Manufacturers no longer include a 2-iron as part of the set.
Some no longer include 3-Irons.

Will increased distance continue the trend away from diversity in club use ?

At the present time, some are calling for a reduction from 14 to 12 clubs.

In the past, this was resisted.

But, today, with the elimination of 2, 3 and 4 irons in favor of a utility club, does the movement to 12 clubs meet less resistance ?

Look at the distances Jamile Slonis hit his irons while competing in the USGA Mid-Am and tell me why he or anyone else couldn't get along with just 12 clubs ?

[Padraig Dooley]

One of the major factors in the demise of long irons is the general reductions of loft throughout the normal set of clubs. Irons now are generally one club stronger than 10, 20 years ago. Why would you want a 2 iron when your 3 iron is one?

The reality is that the ordinary golfer struggles with long irons and shouldn't really carry them, fairway woods and hybrids are better for nearly all golfers.

All golfers could get by with 4 less clubs, eliminate the even clubs for example, it won't affect your scoring, it might introduce more shotmaking, eg hard hooking 7 or soft fading 5.


One dimensional course setups and design lead to one dimensional golfers.

[Sean_A]

Pat

Length is not a problem for almost every golfer I know or have met.  I know it has been stated many times before, but the "distance" issue effects a very small percentage of golfers.  However, I still agree with your proposal to limit the number of clubs.  Though I wouldn't bother pussyfootin about.  Eight clubs, ten maximum, is enough for anybody to get the job done.  I think we would see top players do a lot more thinking about smash mouth golf.  I am not sure scores would be any higher, but that isn't the point.  Watching the best players would be more entertaining which is what I assume the crux of the distance debate is all about.  

Ciao

Sean

[Phil McDade]

I agree with Padraig -- the vast majority of golfers (which reflects equipment makers and the clubs they provide for golfers) don't hit low irons very well (I don't carry an iron lower than a 5; I'm not that good, and thus representative of how most folks play the game). Every time I turn around, and listen to golf commentators/read golf instructional pieces, the advice is -- get rid of low irons, go to utility clubs. (I carry 5-9 irons, 3 wedges, driver-3-5 woods, 2 utilities ((effectively 7- and 9-wood loft)) and putter.)) I could probably get by with 11 or 12 clubs (dump one wedge, one utility, and maybe 3-wood), but not much less than that. There's a big difference in the length I get from my driver vs. 3-wood, and my 5-wood off of fairway lies vs. my more lofted utility clubs.

The only thing I'd disagree with, Padraig, is the notion that most golfers could get rid of even-numbered clubs. Most golfers can't play a hard-hooking 7 or a soft-fading 5; they generally know how far they can hit a 7 vs. a 5, and simply try to hit it as straight as they can. You'd leave a lot of golfers with in-between shots (in terms of distance), and force golfers to hit shots (a punch 7 for a normal 8-iron distance) most aren't capable of making. (Maybe that's worth pursuing, but I agree with Patrick -- you'd get lots of resistance in terms of folks wanting a the regular range of irons to play.)

Patrick -- my two utility woods replaced my 3 and 4 irons. I hit the utilities far better than my 3 and 4 irons, so I've kept using them. How is that any different than the goofy putter Furyk now uses that he took up a few years ago (or cavity-backed irons, or steel shafts, or non-leather grips, or...)?

[Chris Kane]

Is the game becoming "Drive", "Wedge"  "Putt's"  ?
Not the game I play Patrick, or 98% of golfers.

Manufacturers no longer include a 2-iron as part of the set.
Some no longer include 3-Irons.
A 2-iron from twenty years ago is a 3-iron today.  A 2-iron in a standard set today would be a 1-iron from the past

Will increased distance continue the trend away from diversity in club use ?
There will have to be significant increases in distance for the average player for the game to become driver-wedge-putt on a Saturday morning at golf clubs throughout the world.

At the present time, some are calling for a reduction from 14 to 12 clubs.
Who is calling for a reduction to twelve clubs?  I've heard ten clubs before, but never twelve

Look at the distances Jamile Slonis hit his irons while competing in the USGA Mid-Am and tell me why he or anyone else couldn't get along with just 12 clubs ?
My club has a 5-club competition once a year, where the winning scores are usually similar to what they are in normal competition.  I can't speak for the elite player, but at club level, losing two clubs would make no difference

Patrick, on a broader level, why change the makeup of the set, when its the ball which is the issue?

[Dean Paolucci]

Pat - I think so!  When I was growing up I remember a much greater variety of shots being played with less club options.  Sand Wedge was the Gap and Lob Wedge.  By the way, remember when the loft was NOT on the Club and everybody had similar (not jacked up) standards?  SW or putter was used against the collar not 3 or Utility Club.  The 2 iron was the Rescue Club not to mention the Club of choice to punch into a mound or off a root.  7 and 8 iron to pitch and run over a smartly placed fairway bunker.   The creative side of the game has been removed.  It seams like most young players either knock it on the par 5's with an iron or make X because they just don't know the fine points of the game.  Just this mans opinion.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

It's a game - define your own dimensions.

14 clubs is not an obligation and less clubs in the bag doesn’t necessarily mean a less interesting game of golf. I started carrying a half set this summer to avoid lugging around a full set, something I did as a junior.

I find I could handle the distance problem by using a bit of imagination with ½ shots, ¾ shots, open faces, closed faces and overpowering. It adds an interesting new dimension to the game and more confidence to creative shot making.

Recently in a practise round I tried playing to a green using a full 7, a reduced 5 and a bump and run 3 – to my short-lived moment of pleasure all made the green surface. More fun than just dialling in the club and doing the same swing each time.

Try it you’ll like it.

[ForkaB]

The title of this thread is the most anti-tautological thread I have ever seen, but since Pat is a Golden Domer, I'll give him a break and assume he is trying some sort of 11th dimensional logic that the rest of us can neither imagine nor see.......

As for the morphed topic--by all means reduce the number of clubs.  Golf would be an enormously more interesting game if we had to manufacture shots, rather than dial them in.  Whether or not we know or can even reach the appropriate area codes when we are dialing in is a topic for another thread....

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I sold more 'short' sets this year than at anytime in the past, the trend is growing. Mid-irons, long-irons, and, especially, fairway woods are taking a hit in favor of hybrids, which in most cases hit the ball longer and higher than the iron they are supposed to be replacing. I've also seen a drop in the popularity of 56* and 60* wedges. Some players are replacing them with a 58* 'combo' club, and adjusting their other clubs accordingly.
I really don't think there would be much resistance to fewer clubs among everyday players. Manufacturers and Tour players might raise more objections.

[ForkaB]

Jim

The Pros would carry 47 clubs (like Lawson Little in the 30's) if you let them.  They are big boys.  Let them use 7-8 like the rest of us.  It would make the game MUCH more interesting.

[RJ_Daley]

With the exception of the driver, it is the ball that lessens the dimensionality of the game, IMHO.  If the ball were not so hot and straight, and finely spun by good players, and the driver not so big and springlike effect, then the game would be more dimensionally creative with more clubs, not less.  


I'm not good enough or long enough to worry about length ruining the game I can play at my level from member-mid tees.  But, it is ruining the game on the architectural side, with costly building and remodelling more courses to achieve more length for the better players.  Thus, tickle down economics that it is costing me more to play, theoretically.

[ForkaB]

Dick

I love "tickle down economics!"  Is that what Bush 41 meant when he talked about a kinder, gentler world?

[RJ_Daley]

That's 'kindler n gendler', I think

Don't you just love those Reaganomics putts that must trickle down to the hole?  They are real Laffers.

[Sean_A]

I'm not good enough or long enough to worry about length ruining the game I can play at my level from member-mid tees.  But, it is ruining the game on the architectural side, with costly building and remodelling more courses to achieve more length for the better players.  Thus, tickle down economics that it is costing me more to play, theoretically.

RJ

It could be argued that we are entering an architectural  renaissance.  Seems strange to be happening in the middle of a "distance" problem which is meant to destroy architectural intent.  

It would be interesting to know exactly how many courses are lengthening and for what reasons.  

Ciao

Sean
   

[Phil Benedict]

I think we overdo the impact of length other than at the professional or national class amateur level.  I hit a good drive on a flat surface with no wind about 280.  Assuming I hit a good drive, here are the approach clubs I use at my home course.  The variations are based on wind direction.  I hit the ball very high so wind affects my carry distances more than the normal player.

1st hole (par 4), 6-iron to sand wedge
2nd hole (par 4) 5-iron to 8-iron
3rd hole (par 3) 3-4 iron
4th hole (par 4) 8-iron to PW
5th hole (par 4) 4-iron to 7-iron
6th hole (short par 4) LW
7th hole (par 4) 5-iron to 8-iron
8th hole (par 3) 6-8 iron
9th hole (par 5) 6-iron; lay up if too far back
10th hole (par 4) 6-pw
11th hole (shortish par 4) PW to LW
12th hole (par 3) 5-7 iron
13th hole (par 4) 9-iron to SW
14th hole (par 3) 3-iron to 3-wood
15th hole (par 4) 4-iron to PW
16th hole (par 4) PW to LW
17th hole (par 4) 7-iron to PW
18th hole (par 4) 4-iron to 8-iron

We have an out and back routing so the wind tends to help and hinder you on about an equal number of holes.  So while I may be hitting the shorter clubs to some holes, it's likely that I am hitting the longer clubs to others on any particular day.  For example, in the prevailing summer wind our par 5 9th, which is about 515 yards long from a severely elevated tee, is only a drive and a mid-iron for me.  In the spring or fall, however, when the wind is against, it's a much longer club and usually I choose to lay up to about 100 yards to avoid a hazard in front and to the left of the green.

The point of this long-winded narrative is that there is a lot of variety - dimension as Pat terms it - in a typical round of golf for me.  While there are plenty of guys who hit the ball a helluva lot farther than I do, I don't come across too many of them in my normal play.

My guess is that the majority of people on this site use close to his or her full bag in a typical round.

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