[Matt_Cohn]

I've only played one of his courses - The Ranch in San Jose - and I just looked at pictures of Arroyo Trabuco in So Cal. I've already posted here about how severe The Ranch was, and Arroyo Trabuco looks quite similar - lots of narrow fairways bordered by lost-ball territory on both sides.

http://www.arroyotrabuco.com/gallery/html/hor20.html

But I realize my opinion of Casey O'Callaghan is, at best, underinformed. Have people here played any of his other courses? Are they all this severe? Are they severe, but good? Has he gotten better land to work with, and if so, has he produced different kinds of courses?

[rjsimper]

I played Indian Canyons in Palm Springs.  Interestingly, I found it to be the opposite - too easy and not at all demanding.  If I recall correctly, it's near 7000 yards and par 72, but the rating from the tips doesn't even hit 71.0.

The piece of property is very odd - kind of wedged against a road, and only 17 holes are on the central piece of property - the 6th hole, a short and nondescript par 3, is through a tunnel and plays between houses, after which you go through a second tunnel back to where you started, backtrack a few hundred yards, and go play the 7th.

I'll post some pictures in tomorrow if anyone's interested, but overall I felt it was an average course - the routing on the front nine was downright weird...it truly made no sense, though most of the holes were perfectly fine when considered individually.

The back was definitely better, but a few weak spots including nearly identical back-to-back par 4s (I think 14 and 15) are distracting.  The back nine makes interesting use of strangely bent palm trees as a strategic feature.

I still, for the life of me, can't understand the 6th hole though.  

Oh, and Amy Alcott is credited with consulting on the design.

[Matt_Cohn]

http://tinyurl.com/ese3u

That's Indian Canyons from above. The bunkering does show some...consistency.

[rjsimper]

Let the record show that Indian Canyons is ONLY south of the main road...and note the 6th hole in the very bottom all by it's lonesome.

[Evan_Green]

He also designed the nine hole course in Yountville, CA called Vintners which is right to perhaps the finest veterans home in the country. You can see the course off of Route 29 - it's also nearby Domaine Chandon winery.

Vintners is not a particularly spectacular course, but for the most part is very playable and fun as an appetizer to the great wine tasting in the region. There are a couple of penal shots, but it is nowhere near as severe as the Ranch by any stretch of the imagination. The Ranch is the most severe course I've ever seen - i literally lost 20 golf balls there (I'm a 5 handicap - OK I did have a bad ball striking day, but still...  )

My pal was not as lucky - he didnt bring enough balls and had to hunt for balls in the grass to finish the round! I
was down to my last 2!

[Gib_Papazian]

I cannot blame him for the Ranch . . . . well, there are a couple spots that are hard to excuse, but even C.B. Macdonald could not have taken those grazing hills and turned it into a decent golf course.

The investors must have had rocks in their cabesa to think anybody was going to play that excretable black mark on our game more than once.

There is a big world out there and plenty of room for every kind of course . . . . . except that.

Maybe Joe Rigo will like it better than Fishers . . . .    

[Tom Huckaby]

Interesting... I must have a weird attraction to very severe Casey O. golf courses.

For I have played each of The Ranch, Arroyo Trabuco, and another one that might top either:  Hidden Valley in Norco.  Anyone else here play that one?

It does seem to me Casey has carved out a niche of taking awful sites for golf and somehow getting courses on them.  As Gib rightfully says, that is certainly the case re The Ranch... and it is re Hidden Valley as well... to a lesser extent Arroyo Trabuco - oh yes that is severe, but it's not nearly as bad as the other two.

I wonder if this is just what he does... what other courses has he created?  These three certainly do follow the mold.

TH

[PjW]

Tom

I had the opportunity to work with Casey on Hidden Valley.  It was his first golf course and one of the most difficult pieces of property in which to place 18 holes of golf.  While I will not say it is a great course it does have some individual holes that are interesting.  I thought that for what he had to work with, compromises that had to be made that it turned out as good as it could.  

How is Coyote Creek holding up?  I have not had the opportunity to ever get back there.

Phil Wycoff

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil:

You know, for all its warts and incredible severity, well... I do actually have very fond memories of Hidden Valley.  I sure as hell didn't HATE it like I do The Ranch.  (And as my good friend Gib said about that course, we can't fault Casey for how it is - in fact it shows his genius he was able to even make a cogent course out of that site - the fault there lies with the developer or whoever the hell thought that site could produce a viable golf course - you think HV was a bad site?  Jeez ask Casey about The Ranch...).  I recall some very fun shots at Hidden Valley - severe for sure, but hero shots that make one come back and play again, just to tell the friends about them... There are two incredible par 4s I recall - one goes up the cliff with one of the more amazing heroic carries required one will ever see - and the other also starts low and one can go left and be safe or cut the cliff and hazard and get to an upper fairway.... I'm thinking these are 6 and 8 but it has been awhile.  Those are holes we still talk about to this day, and it's been at least 6 years since I played there.

Coyote Creek is doing just fine, btw.  It does get much love on this site, but then again what Nicklaus courses do?  I seem to be one of few fans of it.  I still play there quite a bit, or as much as anywhere else anyway.  I like both courses but prefer the Valley.  Others hate both.  Oh well.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Hidden Valley (aka Happy Valley, due to the explicit affairs the course once used to experience) is a decent golf course on a incredible difficult piece of land. It maintains enough quirk and fun golf shots to keep the course interesting. The downside is the ridiculousness of the downhill tee shots which tend to get a bit overdone--but what was one going to do with that kind of a routing?

The 6th from the black tee is simply a goofy hole, but it works because the approach shot for all of it's lack of definition gets into your face. It's all about that hillside, right Phil?

The green on the 7th really works for me, as does the rest of the hole, which must mean something because morst don't care for it!

The back nine is pretty solid golf with exception to the downhill, "I'm King Of The World" tee shot @ I think it's the 14th. (please remind me!)

[peter_p]

Casey sounds like the Bunny Mason of California.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Casey is no Bunny Mason! (thankfully)

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, Bunny Mason is the golf professional emeritus at Columbia-Edgewater and a hell of a nice guy.  His most recent design work is a terrific little par 3 course at CECC.

The only course he designed that I'm aware of is the Glaze Meadow course at Black Butte with a very funky, short, developer-induced par 5 opener.

What problem course are you thinking of?

Sorry to hijack.......

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
With a name like Bunny, In this vast world, I have no doubt he'll fit into the annals of golf architecture.....

With that, have you ever ventured out to Persimmon yet? Bunny did that, and while I haven't played it, my cousin has on several occasions, commenting to me that after each time he didn't walk right for a week! (a lot of sidehill lies)(take the comment for what you will! )

It's easy to claim this course beautiful when you have the most beautiful mountain in the world as a back drop! (I love Mount Hood!)

[Bill_McBride]

Where is Persimmon?  Haven't heard of that one yet, but apparently in Oregon.    That is Stanley Thompsonian routing there, a Western Banff or Jasper with the golf hole lined up directly with the mountain peak.  Capilano has a couple of those as well.

So is Persimmon your only knock on Bunny?  I don't know if he lurks at GCA (I don't think so), but I may be your only defense if he reads this......

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill, I'm not knocking Bunny at all. In the past, and I'm talking way-way in the past before there was even a GCA, with my inane attempts at dry humor--and Peter and John V. can back me up on this, I've always more or less said, "A golf course architect named Bunny? I don't think so!!!!!"

The fact is that I knew Bunny was the former pro at C-E and even Ray Newberry can back that up!

And if Bunny wants to come on to GCA, I will give him that log-in just as soon as I change my name to Elmer Fudd. and I mean that!

Besides, I would probably have a lot to talk with him regarding H. Chandler Egan and golf in the Beaver state. who knows, maybe he might know the right people over at Lake Oswego, where he could convince them to restore.

[Bill_McBride]

Okay, you are extended dispensation.  Honest!  

Last visit, Bunny told me that years ago he told the city fathers in Bend that there would be 25 courses in the area within 20 years.  They snickered, as there were only 3 then.  There are at least than many now, the place is a hotbed of golf.

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