[George Pazin]

I just finished reading Dream Golf - which I highly recommend - and in the acknowledgments and back inside jacket cover, the author mentions that he is an investor in a public course in Maryland, along with Mike Keiser. Does anyone know what course he is referring to?

[Willie_Dow]

Lindsay Irvin, who did Queenstown & Hog Neck, just finished up Compass Point.  Played Queenstown & Hog Neck, and rate them well up there.  Looking forward to CP.

He's a great router.

[Andy Hughes]

Hmm, George, I found this page which says the course is in Ijamsville, MD.

The two courses up the road from me that seem like they fit the bill would be the P.B. Dye Club or Whiskey Creek (Ernie Els).

[Jerry Kluger]

As I understand it, there were a couple of guys who started Whiskey Creek but didn't have the pockets to finish it and eventually Kemper Sports came in and I think they are still the owner/operators so maybe he is part of that organization. I have heard that PB Dye has had a number of owners, and Worthington Manor is still owned by the same person who owns Carroll Valley.  

[Mike Hoak]

The course was Whiskey Creek.  Goodwin actually wrote about the experience in Golf Magazine.  The articles can be found here:

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/travel/northeast/article/0,17742,486418,00.html

[George Pazin]

Thanks everyone for the help!

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Should you venture to that part of Maryland I recommend a ride at P.B. Dye GC -- very interesting and has been tamed a bit too much for my tastes. Might just be the ticket for you as the layout still has enough jazz to keep golfers listening to the course music.

[astavrides]

George:

Should you venture to that part of Maryland I recommend a ride at P.B. Dye GC -- very interesting and has been tamed a bit too much for my tastes. Might just be the ticket for you as the layout still has enough jazz to keep golfers listening to the course music.

PB dye is ok, kinda interesting.  i didnt like all the semi-blind tee shots, especially the first time playing it.  I don't think i saw where my drive was going to finish until like #7.

[Andy Hughes]

stavros, if you hit the ball as far as me you wouldn't have much trouble seeing 'em come down.

But I am planning on going out to PB Dye again this week, if anyone wants to play?

[Jordan Wall]

Links at Lighthouse Sound..

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Working URL:

http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/travel/northeast/article/0,17742,486418,00.html

[Matt_Ward]

What made P.B. Dye interesting to me (the original layout) was that the course's namesake wasn't about to fashion another empty and flat CCFAD experience.

The green sites (at that time) were quite vexing and far beyond the run-of-the-mill big flat discs that dominate too many of MD's public course layouts.

The blind shots also are fun and quite appropriate because they keep you on edge.

[Willie_Dow]

Matt - I'd be interested in your thoughts on Hog Neck and the two courses in Queenstown by Lindsay Ervin.  I liked the routing on rather uninteresting terrain.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I agree with you about the PB Dye course.  I really enjoyed the blind shots and wild green complexes, although in spots it was clearly over the top, such as the 13th hole that previously featured a pond just right of the narrow green and the left side falling off about 20 feet to a bunker!  Still, it seemed to me to be a conceptual sandbox for PB and most of it came of as exciting, if a bit on the edge.

Bill,

I also think the routing at Hog Neck and Queenstown Harbor are both very solid.  I do wish that Ervin had a little more creativity in his features, particularly his bunkering which tends to be sort of amorphous, and I find his tendency to require some forced carries a bit much on the poorer player, but I also have to say that I do look forward to playing his courses.   Woodlands near Baltimore is another of his courses that I liked how he used the land in terms of routing.   The par five 17th and the shortish par four 18th there are worth the price of admission.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - Lindsay has become a pretty good friend of mine - I'm playing golf with him fairly regularly.  I have an article coming out next month about Hog Neck.  You may be astounded to realize that there are effectively no forced carries at Hog Neck - all the hazards are siding.  Lindsay did this intentionally as to not penalize the daily fee-er. His bunkers at HN, while sometimes symmetric, are placed in tight groups and flashed - suggesting the coastal dunes some 25 miles east.

Play Compass Point, especially the east, sometime.  I'd like to hear your comments.

I've also written about PB Dye and don't share your's and Matt's enthusiasm.  Upon entering the clubhouse there is a large portrait of a smiling 300lb PB Dye with a title under the picture....The Creator.  That's all I needed to know!

Whiskey Creek is the class of upper Montgomery/lower Frederick Counties.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Don't know what P.B. Dye layout you played -- the original one or the one that was softened.

Either way -- let me say this -- at the very least P.B. decided to push the envelope -- too much of what calls itself top quality golf in Maryland is simply low level formulaic style design. P.B. Dye GC actually evokes strong comments because the design isn't afraid to try certain things.

I think people forget the qualities of many of the holes there. There's enough room for different levels of players to enjoy themselves and at the same time the architect doesn't give free passes to the better players intent on maxing out the lowest round possible.

One last thing -- Whiskey Creek is a perfect CCFAD -- plenty of style -- little on the edgy design meter for me.

Willie:

Hog Neck is a good layout from Lindsay but I prefer Queenstown Harbor much better. The layout there takes what he did at the Easton layout and carried it a bit further.

One other Ervin layout to make note of it is Old South GC in Lothian, MD. First rate layout and frankly flies too far below the radar screen. Have not been back in quite some time but would recommend it for those in the area.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I find Old South to be pretty close to awful.  The first hole is a par five that requires an iron off the tee for many players unable to fly the trap on the left.  The fourth (I think) maybe the dumbest hole in the east.  The tee shot must land on a dime.  Many of the holes take driver out of your hand or you drive it into the marsh.  There are some good holes but there are too many mediocre and dreadful holes.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

You'll need to apply some details to your comments for me to be convinced. I hit the ball a good ways off the tee and didn't find Old South to be quite vexing because good players need to really think before pulling the trigger on many of the holes.

I'll defer to you for now because one time there was 5-6 years ago and the memory is good but not razor sharp.

Have you played Queenstown Harbor and if you have I'd be interested in your thoughts of it versus Hog Neck?

Thanks ...

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt:  I agree with Jonathan that in the area, PB Dye is not one of my favorites as the quirkiness doesn't seem to add to strategy and enjoyment rather it just causes frustration.  I too enjoy Whiskey Creek, especially the back nine, while I also like Joe Lee's Musket Ridge and Arthur Hills' Maryland National.  The only resistance I get from friends is that Whiskey Creek is pricey while the other two add another 20 minutes to the drive from the DC area.  In any event, it's nice to have such a good choice within a reasonable drive.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve Goodwin was indeed one of the investors at Whiskey Creek.

He didn't name names when he wrote his article in GOLF Magazine, but he and his partner had originally hired Lester George to do the course.  It was Lester of whom Steve Lesnik (Kemper Sports) said, I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like, "He may be the next Alister MacKenzie for all I know, but I've never heard of him, so he's not doing our course."

It was Kemper's idea to bring in Ernie Els and pair him with a designer.  I interviewed for the job, but I thought the land was a bit severe and we were pretty busy already, so I held out for too much money [about a quarter of what I'm holding out for now!].  I'm glad I got to spend more time with Steve for his book, because I think he had the impression I was an ass from our one day together at Whiskey Creek.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

Did you play the course (P.B. Dye) just after it opened or only after the changes were made?

When I hear about the quirk at P.B. Dye being inappropriate I have to wonder if modern style quirk (especially if carried out by others who are not on the preferred GCA listing) is ever appreciated to the full level but when done with courses across the pond it's embraced unconditionally?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I wonder if you may be thinking of South River.  It is a very good public course.  I am not certain it is Linsey Ervin.  Old South is private.  When it first opened many of my friends joined Old South only to quit after a few years.  I think The architect was hampered a little by the wetlands and the cramped quarters.  The best holes are the on the back nine.  

I like Queenstown. The original is fun.  The second (River?) seems to have too much water on it.  Again he was hampered by the low lying land.  I like water for esthetic reasons.  I just think it is being over used especially on public courses.  I call it the Kemper Lakes syndrom.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Again -- I have to emphasize that without a good bit more ont he specific front I'm not going to throw Old South under the bus.

I didn't say it was a candidate for national honors but the layout does provide a fair return on good shots made and poor shots that are not executed as well.

When you say Queenstown Harbor has too much H20 my counter to that is you do the best with the land you have and Lindsay did that -- frankly I think the two top nines there trump Hog Neck by a good bit.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tommy - listen to Matt, he knows what he's talkin about.

I think the back nine at Hog is near great (very, very strong).  I think all three nines at Queenstown you could play day in / day out and have a ton of fun.

South River is good too (I just wrote an article about it for GS) although it is more a quiet "members" course - shorter and set in a housing complex.

If I lived in Annapolis I would seriously consider belonging to South River (you belong to Queenstown and Potomac Ridge too with your SR annual membership).

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan, Tommy, et al:

Does Hog Neck still calculate course yardages through meters rather than yards ?

I guess they wanted to be in the forefront on that trend.

One unrelated question to those who follow MD public golf -- what section has the better (apply any definition) set of public courses -- the Eastern Shore or the rest of the state?

Thanks ...

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