Are "doglegs" the architectural answer to the question ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The question is, what is one of the ways that the distance problem can be muted through course design ?

[Kyle Harris]

Doglegs tend to imply a myriad of angles (good ones at least)... so in a categorical sense, yes.

It's all about implementation.

I wouldn't venture to say that a dogleg hole is the architectural answer to cutting out a distance advantage but it can certainly be an effective one.

The dogleg needs to use hazard placement, visual deception, multiple angles of attack and a number of other more basic architectural features in order to be the answer.

I think this question needs to be more basic, as a dogleg hole is generally a symptom of more basic architectural concepts.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

The WF / West model is a good start. The key holes do turn roughly 30-45 degrees and the player must successfully marry appropriate distance with sound positioning. Making players work the ball from side to side calls for great skill and removes the-bust-one-at-all-counts emphasis seen at too many modern courses today.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out this week in Mamaroneck.

[wsmorrison]

Architectural features that answer the distance problem in addition to doglegs include central and diagonal hazards, offset greens and fairways (which create doglegs).  I believe golf course architecture took a giant leap forward when tee shots were varied from straight away fairways and greens.  When center hazards were added to straight away fairways another decision was added to the strategic equation.  Diagonal hazards on the tee shot act in much the same way as offset fairways.  Offset fairways also add the far fairway contour line into the angle and distance equation.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Perhaps there is no one answer?

Doglegs are fine, if gentle enough to suggest, promote, or even demand shot shaping, and if not too short off the tee to simply require a layup and a longer iron.  No sense making the game more boring just to raise scores of a few golfers.

A mixture of greens, flatter front to back on most holes require more skill to control, sort of making up for the wetter surfaces present today.  However, some should be more sloping greens to promote reduced spin shots for a change of pace to bring back an element of strategy similar, but updated to the Golden Age.  For that matter, side slope and reverse slope greens would also be good.

If they will hit shorter irons, then make the skills required for those more in line and with more dimensions than previously.

Then allow that longer par 3's should be in the design to force at least some long irons.  Par 3's at long last have a more useful function in strategic golf!  Maybe, we could even go to five or six par 3 holes as standard.....just for the purpose of reintroducing the long iron shot so favored by Tillie as a true test of golf.......

Wayne,

I agree on offset fairways to promote angles of play.  Not at all sure carry or even diagonal fw bunkers and offset green are the best answer in other than limited doses.  Remember, Pat is still just worried about the 0.000001 % of golfers who actually play under par.  These are too difficult for average players, and frankly, don't bother the good players enough to warrant their wholesale use.

Kyle,

Visual deception in the age of yardage books and GPS?  Probably a diminishing return, but if done well, it could be a great idea on a few holes. Faz did a nice job at Shadow Creek, forcing perspective on one hole, and then making things look closer on the next.  I do think certain things like that work better in pairs.

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

I think visual deception can be employed in other ways than simply distance. Throwing angles with green and bunker presentation can really hamper a golfer's alignment. Parallel lines tend to make golfers comfortable, and perhaps a little bit too comfortable if they are employed in such away to distract attention from a better way to play the hole.

Eyes can be drawn to a significant tree, bunker, green or fairway feature that may draw attention away from a more ideal line.

Slopes and other features can throw golfers off and make them "bite off more than they can chew" based on a perceived need to cut a corner.

As I alluded to in the first post, it's all about implementation.

The architect must pose 18 questions, and the golfer must answer all 18.

[wsmorrison]

Its easier to solve the distance problem and shot shaping requirements with higher spinning golf balls.  Compounding the above mentioned features with uneven lies and the best golfers are more easily identified.  Flynn's use of uneven fairways and slopes was quite sophisticated.  At Huntingdon Valley he had draw lies that required fades and fade lies that require draws.  You had better be a good striker of the ball and be able to move it the desired shape if you want to hit it into the proper spot in the fairway and the green on approaches.

[Kyle Harris]

Angles are the architectural answer.  You must decide on distance and direction simultaneously.  That is a real test for most tee balls.

Kyle, ther are as many as 72 questions, but there certainly should be 36.

I am thinking essay questions, but I see where you're going with that.  

[Jordan Wall]

For the most part I think doglegs are fine.

I do not think that players should always be hitting irons off tees, even 5 or 6 times a round (excluding par threes), whether it means having a longer club into the green or not.  

[Dan Kelly]

Kyle, ther are as many as 72 questions, but there certainly should be 36.

I thought there were 42.

Has anyone mentioned short, devilish par-4s as one of the answers? Because they certainly are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will WFW's doglegs defend against the long ball ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

In sum -- yes.

I saw Tiger try to tame the 18th on Tuesday with a power draw over the far inside corner of the hole. The purpose? Tiger attempted to fly the corner -- hit the far downslope and simply have no more than 80-90 yards into the green.

What happened?

His tee ball nearly made it (the favorable NW wind that day also played a hand) but hit the remaining inside tree and came to rest in a somewhat favorable position in which he then played a first rate short iron into the green.

I have watched the players thus far and I can see the caution they are displaying by respecting the turning points of the many holes on the West.

No doubt the aggressive play can be made -- but the level of the execution is still front and center as it should be.