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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« on: May 23, 2006, 04:00:53 PM »
On my trip to England this past month I played courses designed mostly by Herbert Fowler (1856-1941 and H.S. Colt.  Herbert Darwin called Fowler, “the most daring and original designer of all time.”

Fowler came to golf late in life.  He didn’t begin to play until age 35 and designed his first course while in his forties. Hid first designs were at Walton Heath; old and new.  The Old may be his finest design, although the New is very similar. It just isn’t as stern a test.  In addition he designed both courses at The Berkshire, Saunton East, Cruden Bay,  and a complete redesign of Old Tom’s Royal North Devon .   I played those courses on other trips.  This time I played some of his lesser know courses.  They included, RND again, (I have an overseas membership there), Beau Desert, Delamere Forest, and Bull Bay.  If Beau Desert and Delamere Forest were in Surrey they would be in the British top 100.  His designs require the player to strategize his way around the course. Brute strength can get you in trouble.

Beau Desert and The Berkshire (Red and Blue) are built on similar hilly heathland terrain.  The others have terrain all their own.  His routings verge on genius.  He utilizes the natural terrain brilliantly but he is not constricted by it.   He is one of the few architects that can’t be typed.  Each course is a fresh canvas. He rarely uses the same theme twice.  He will route the course so some holes are uphill, downhill, along the side of a hill, a blind shot over a hill or knob to knob.  Rarely do two holes go the same direction in a row.  If they do, the terrain will make the player hit different kind of shots.

If there is one consistency in his design it is his penchant for making knob to knob par threes and short par fours.  The ninth at Beau Desert is a perfect example of a great short par four.  It is only about 260 yards knob to knob.  It begs and entices the player to drive the green.  There are devilishly placed bunkers short and left but there is also a green patch of fairway up the right side.  Miss the green and you have a tricky long bunker shot. If the tee ball misses on the right, the it will trickle down the hill and leave the player with a testy little uphill shot to a undulating green. Hit the green or a greenside bunker and you’re looking at birdie.

His bunkering varies from course to course.  At Bull Bay in northwest Wales, he only created ten bunkers.  He didn’t need anymore.  He routed the land through and over rock outcroppings and gorse bushes.  He does, however, utilize cross-bunkers more than most but wanted an avenue fronting the green.  In addition, he liked his bunkers flashed up so that the ball would generally roll to the bottom of the trap. And at Bull Bay he put rock outcroppings as fairway hazards instead of cross-bunkers.  For instance, at Bull Bay the tee shot at #2 is blind to a fairway that has a rock outcropping in the middle of the fairway that can fling a tee shot left or right.  You couldn’t get away with it today, but it is great fun.  The 325 yard eight hole may be one of the most unusual holes I have ever played.  It is almost impossible to describe but here goes.  The tee is on high ground and is a downhill shot.  The player is faced with two options: hit a tee shot  about 180 yards down the hill over gorse bushes short of a little stream. That will leave the player with an uphill shot of about 150 yards over a rocky hill to a smallish green.  The other option is to risk hitting a driver over that rocky hill to a fairway on the same level.  That will leave the player some 100 yards to the green.  I could have played that hole all day and never have tired of it. Obviously, he is not afraid to try something different.  

Unfortunately most of his designs are in England and Wales. His most famous work in the US are Eastward Ho! and  LACC with George Thomas.


 


Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2006, 04:05:39 PM »
We're playing Delamere Forest and Beau Desert in October after the Buda Cup, and must say I am getting tingly!  8)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2006, 04:54:29 PM »
Tommy Williamson,
Your forgetting a lot of other Fowler works here, more importantly the recently ruined Fowler work, BY KYLE PHILLIPS DESIGN, CARE OF MARK THAWLEY* at Del Paso Country Club in Sacramento. Fowler was also responsible for Ambassador Country Club which is now commonly known as Rancho Park Golf Course, one of the busiest courses in the nation, if not the world.

*Look for these two to be doing more damage to the history of great golf architecture when they start work on the Cal Club.
 
Fowler was for the most part in the US, figured to be an arrogant sod from England. So much that there is a letter going around from someone asking Walter Travis to get out here to LA because Fowler was such a __ick. I'll try to get a copy of that letter, because I would like to see it myself!

As far as LACC, well Geo. Thomas oversaw the construction of Fowler's design. Just a few short years later he redid the course again to his own plans. Does this makeFowler a bad designer? I don't think so, but ultimately the interest in here lies on exactly what principles he represented in England compared to those he wanted to put in the ground in California.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2006, 05:11:41 PM »
For those knowledgeable of Northern California course - is there any Herbert Fowler left at Crystal Springs GC?  The dippy holes up where I-280 cut in are pretty awful, but a lot of the rest is pretty good.  The holes in the NW corner are very quirky as I recall, it's been a long time.......

Interesting he would have been up there in the wilds of the Bay Area.  Did he do any other work in the immediate area?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 05:28:47 PM »
Bill - Pete Galea would be the expert on Crystal Springs and Fowler's involvement - hopefully he'll see this - it's been discussed before in here (like damn near all other issues).

I lived fairly near there for a few years, in fact I'd have to have called it my home course during that time.  It is Beautiful with an intentional capital B... the views of the hills and lake to the west are incredible.  There are a few very quirky holes, particulary in the southernmost section (front nine) and most of the back nine... 10-13 is a great stretch of golf...

Not sure what you mean by "dippy holes up where I-280 cut in" - the freeway parallels the east border of the course and runs straight... And I wouldn't say there are any awful holes at all...

It's a pretty neat course.  The main problem is always condition - it's damn near impossible to have anything but quagmire conditions year-round, as the entire course is in the watershed.  But one grins and bears it, enjoys the views, and one usually has fun there.

TH
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 05:29:33 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 05:47:51 PM »
Tom, the holes I'm thinking of are the ones at the far south end of the property.  Those were not original but were added when 280 required removal of I think three holes.  This of course happened when you were in kindergarten.  I just never did think too highly of those two or three holes up there.  10-13 are the ones I was thinking of as really cool, one of them is a dogleg over a chasm.

Are there any SF courses that WEREN'T affected by the construction of 280?  Harding and Lincoln I guess.  SFGC, O Club, Lake Merced, Cal Club (?), Crystal Springs, all were to one extent or another.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 05:52:09 PM »
Bill:

Ok, well, as you point out I've never seen the area prior to 280 - I'm thus having a hard time imagining where the course would go.  And in fact, I think the two holes at the farthest south end are among the BEST on the course!  We're talking #5 - uphill par 4, skyline green, very tough, very fun to play... and #6, extremely downhill ski-run par 4, lake and mountain behind, one of the Bay Area's best views, so much so that they hold weddings there behind the tee.... quirky goofy hole with hazard left, but site of some of the world's longest drives if you catch it just right, cutting the corner with a draw.

4 and 7 are no great shakes.

In any case, you're right - the building of 280 did sure mess up some golf courses!  But thank the lord we have it... the mind shudders to think what north-south traffic would be if we just had 101.  Bad priorities, I know.   ;)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2006, 07:19:24 PM »
Tommy

I was amazed at the difference between Delamere and Beau Desert.  It seems to me that Fowler was more severe at Beau with utilizing the elevation change.  I think he was sort of sneaky in that trees block vistas and therefore few clues are on offer about how much a ball will roll with the land.  Delamere on the other hand is not quite as hilly as Beau, but it is far more straight forward with the use of elevation.  It is quite telling around the greens.  For the most part there is very little movement with Delamere's greens (though I am sure these have been tampered with) compared to the effect the hilly (nobby green sites if you like) green sites have on Beau's greens.  

Even though both courses share super routings the two stand in stark contrast due to the nature of the difference in green styles. Additionally, Delamere offers the illusion of being wide open (sort of Gantonish) where Beau shouts at the player to hit the ball straight or suffer the consequences.  I  think the next most significant difference between the two courses is that the Cheshire gem is loaded with I think 5 short 4s (which are not all driveable by the likes of me).  There is a run of three in a row (#s 13-15)which is particularly noteworthy and not matched at Beau with #15 being a crafty blind drive, hard doglegging to the left with a narrow elevated green.  

These shorties are then followed by a terrific par 3 which plays over a little hollow.  What makes #16 a great hole is that it seems the green should be just over the hollow.  However, Fowler has stuck the green in what seems a strange spot another 30 yards on until you walk around the green.  It is sort of a mini punchbowl with a bunker hanging out to the right.  Fabulous green site, perhaps the best on the course.  

While Beau can't offer an odd run like Delamere's 13-16 nor the lovely views, I think it does have superior par 5s and the two best par 4s (#s 2 & 5) of either course (though #3s & 8 at Delamere are very fine holes).  In the end, I think the greens at Beau (or the not so good greens at Delamere) are the ultimate reason why I think it is slightly the better of the two.  

Both should easily be top 100 in GB&I.  However, I am not quite sure if either has what it takes to be called great.  Y'all should make your way over to the Buda Cup and see for yourself.

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 07:22:00 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2006, 12:30:47 AM »
Sean, I agree about the contrast between BD and DF. If you didn't know who the designers were you could never guess.  Delamer Forest was one of my favorite courses on my trip.  I played with a member who was one-under and beat me like a drum.  

The weakest hole at DF is number fifteen. It is a short relatively boring hole.  In the winter they play it as a 180 yard par three from a tee situated to the right of the landing area.  It makes a great par three.  Everyone at the club hates the hole as a par four and thinks that it is much better as a par three but they don't want to change it because they would have two par threes in a row.  Amazing.  They don't even want to think about making the change.

By the way, my welcome at DF was as warm as any place I have been.  I could be a member there and play the course every day.

I wish I could come to the Buda Cup.  Sounds like fun.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2006, 03:32:32 AM »
Zowie Tommy

I think #15 is one of the better holes at Delamere.  I really liked the uncertainty of the drive and the approach.  I realize most people can't drive it, but I am certain the flat belies can have a go at that green with a fairway wood.  I recall the tee out to the right and concur that it would make a lovely par 3 as well.  It must be a bog down the bottom of that hill in the winter.  

I don't see why the club doesn't utilize the par 3 tee sometimes in the summer.  Just change the card and Bob's yer uncle.  I really like the idea of very different tees which totally change the nature of a hole and am very surprised that it isn't done more often on 18 hole courses.

I too could be happy with a membership at Delamere.  If they redid the greens (I find it hard to believe Fowler designed such pancakes) and drained the bog thing in #18's fairway Delamere would be an absolute stunner.

A final note.  The clubhouse is a bit wild as well.  The window area is an old enclosed pavillion.  I have never seen that before.  Most clubs demolished these pavillions and it is a great shame because they were designed to allow much more interaction with the playing fields.  For instance, that window area has great views of 1, 9, 10 & 18.  I can just imagine last minute bets and piss taking being shouted out.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2006, 03:51:26 AM »
My understanding of Beau Desert is that, when it was designed, there were very few trees and far reaching views. These far reaching views were, however, a little too industrial for the members who decided to plant loads of trees. I think that the course plays very differently to the original intention.

I don't think it's a great course but it's certainly as good, or better, than a number of courses in the UK top 100.

Does anyone have any photos of Royal North Devon, or a link to a previous thread. I can't quite decide whether to play there on my next trip to the South West. Do I play there or go out of my way to play St Enodoc.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2006, 04:15:08 AM »
Ed

You are correct about Beau.  It used to have far fewer trees, but because of unsightly mining the club grew loads of trees to block the views.  Now the course is part of a protected area and they struggle to make any changes without explicit permission.  Its a shame because the fairway corridors really do need to be widened.  

RND is a real divider on this site.  I think most people really rate the course and in a way they are right.  Westward Ho! is worth seeing once.  You may be surprised and really fall for the place.  It is not without its charms.  

I am very much in the indifferent camp.  Westward Ho! is nowhere near as good as the other Fowler courses I have played.  I think he was handicapped by less than good land.  There are too many bland holes on the course.  I also don't care for the rushes holes though they are very unique.  The start and finish is on poor land.  Along with Tain, RND is one of the bigger disappointments I have experienced for links golf.  The course fell well short of my expectations.  Still, it is worth a go.  At something £50 for the day you can't really go wrong.

Ciao

Sean
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 04:16:40 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2006, 04:33:28 AM »
Great debate guys, where else would Fowler get this sort of attention?

Monday 5th June the 'flat bellies' are playing the US Open qualifier at Walton Heath.  Last year on a light wind day,  Michael Campbell, Nick Dougherty and others, qualified with 36 hole scores of (if I remember correctly) about -8 on courses not set up for ‘Championship Play’ - more like Captains day.  I think that speaks well of the courses continued ability to provide a for test the best players game.

Entry is free; Richard Pennell and I will be there at some point in the afternoon. If anyone else can make it please get in touch.   Ten days later Brent Hutto, Craig Disher and I will have our own attempt at setting some club records ;).

I haven't seen any other examples of his work but am curious to know if you think there are any trademarks or a certain style I should look out for at WH?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2006, 05:00:24 AM »
Tony

You have seen The Berkshire right?  They are both Fowler designs.  They are similarish to Beau Desert, but better.  In fact, I think the Red course is Fowler's best and should be mentioned in the same breath as the other big guns of Surrey/Berkshire.  Compare WH with either Berkshire course and tell us what you think.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2006, 05:29:04 AM »
Sean,

Re RND, if I was on my own I would play it. However, there will be 10 or 11 others on the trip and I'm not sure if they'd appreciate it quite as much as me. On the other hand, I know they'd love St. Enodoc.

Ed

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2006, 08:25:06 AM »
Sean "What a stupid I am" luckily I've got you to remember these facts.

Yes I've played Berkshire x2 and did walk large bits of Walton Heath at last year’s qualifier but I would struggle to point out any similarities in style.  The way they use the land means each has its own character.  Each pair are closer in style to each other than they are to anything at the other course, yet holes don’t reaapera on the partnering 18.  (I am assuming that minimal constructional changes were made to each and it doesn’t just look like it’s been there for ever).  And perhaps that's his gift.  However it's also true of others I've seen. (With a small provision to allow Colt the occasional hole with a diagonal run of bunkers).

Last night Worplesdon, (very different to the Addington) and pictures will follow if the camera hasn't rusted up.

Next stop on the GCA world tour of 'London' Heathland courses, circumnavigates the west hill and heads straight for New Zealand.  Mid afternoon Tue 6th June, all welcome.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2006, 08:33:21 AM »
Frank Pont has kindly hosted some pictures I took of Bull Bay and Delamere:  http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/

Throw in Yelverton to the mix and Fowler comes out as someone who clearly responded to the land he had at his disposal and was not formulaic.  West Surrey at Milford is also worth a look.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2006, 08:10:26 PM »
Ed, I love RND.  I'm not sure that I would want to play it every day.  I played seven rounds this spring and the course grows on you.  The green sites are very good.  The sheep and horses add to the sense of history.  One, two, seventeen, and eighteen are on less than ideal land but they are pretty good holes.

St. Enodoc is just grand.  Bring your straight ball and have fun.  Both courses are one of a kind.  If history is more important go to RND.  If you want a wonderful time on the golf course go the Enodoc.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Herbert Fowler: one of a kind
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2006, 10:39:57 PM »
Tommy N.
For the letter you refer to, see David Moriarty.  He uncovered it in the Pasadena files about having Travis design a 9 holer at Brookside.  I have seen it.  Robert Hunter was encouraging Walter Travis to come out to California as it seemed the foul personality of Fowler, according to Hunter, was able to get all the good jobs without any competition.
This is a good discussion.  Strange as it seems, Fowler has not been discussed as much here as he should.  
Also for some you, don't forget to read Ran's course summaries, especially RND.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

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