Engh's work at Blackstone

[Matt_Ward]

I have had the opportunity play a broad range of Jim Engh layouts and my most recent course was his newest effort at Vistancia in Peoria, AZ called Blackstone GC.

Blackstone is the first of several different courses that will be built in the immediate vicinity. The development of the western valley of Phoenix -- stretching from Buckeye to Peoria and going all the way up to Quintero is where the newest push for golf / homes will take place in the greater metro area there.

Blackstone has its moments but it is not as exciting as say another Engh layout in the likes of Lakota Canyon. The first few holes at Blackstone are warm-up type holes. When you get to the back-to-back long par-4's at the 4th (442) and 5th (470) do things start to pick up the pace.

Engh has done well with his virgin effort in Arizona but alas he does keep with his previous motif in adding containment mounding around a few of the greens to propel balls back into the targets. The short par-4 6th is a good example of this drawback and frankly I'd like to see him be a bit more adventurous and move away from this concept that has been used to the point of overkill.

Among the better holes on the front are the par-4 8th and the well done gamble par-5 9th. The 8th plays 447 yards and here Engh mandates you work the ball from right-to-left because the fairway does run out if you push the tee ball down the right side. The green sits nicely above the fairway and you need to pay particular attention to the subtle green movements.

The 9th is vintage Engh -- few architects come remotely close to him in the design of such risk and reward type holes. The 555-yard hole has a well placed fairway bunker on the right and the hole funnels down to a choke point. The longer the hit the more demanding the drive. Push it right and you reach the end game with the desert. The green sits in somewhat of a boxed canyon -- if you desire to go at the target the approach needs to be Nicklausean in terms of height and stopping power. The green has three unique sections and just about any number is in play.

The real qualities of Blackstone take place with the inner half. Here you have three par-5's and three par-3's and three par-4's and rarely does such a combo work in total unison. It does here at Blackstone although I do believe the 18th could have been a bit better in terms of the risk and reward elements you originally saw with such a grand hole like the 9th.

Each of the par-3's on the inner half are well done and you need to work the ball to get to the more demanding pin locations.

At 7,089 yards from the tips (73.9 CR / 143 Slope) there's plenty of fun to be had at Blackstone. For those getting there first sample of Jim Engh design they will not be disappointed. For those who have played a good bit more, like myself, I have played better total efforts than what you find at Blackstone.

All in all, Engh's contribution to the desert community in greater Phoenix is certainly a plus and one to play when in town.

What will be interesting to see is how much more in terms of quality golf will come down the pike in the immediate area. From what I was told three additional courses are planned for Vistancia alone and you do have work just starting on the second 18 at Quintero which is roughly 30 minutes away from the immediate Blackstone area.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, he really really shines especially theough on the par-5s...everywhere...not just here.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

After playing Pradera and Lakota last summer, I played Blackstone about a month ago. I echo your thoughts about the comparison to those two courses but still Blackstone is a very enjoyable course to play- a very good members course.

I think the new Schmidt-Curley course at Sun City Festival is next online to open in January. The other courses at Vistancia and Verrado are not in the immediate future.

Steve

[Kirk Gill]

What would you say about the walkability of the course? Engh has gotten a lot of criticism about that aspect of his designs on this site.

I have not played Blackstone, but their course map seems to indicate that there is only one walk of any real distance between green and ensuing tee.

Your thoughts?

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: Blackstone was my first Engh course and I must say that I was far more enthusiastic about it than you apparently are.  I understand that many of his courses are on much more dramatic pieces of property which make for a difficult comparison.  My view was that the greens were great with some very interesting contours.  There was a bit of a containment feel to some of the green surrounds but there were also some very challenging positions to recover from around the greens.  

I definitely thought that the par 3s were solid and the three and on the back challenged you with different angles, depths and distances.  The course had some good short par 4s which are always fun and the long par 4s were surely challenging.  Some people might not like the ponds/lakes but they were allowed to be strategically important, especially on number 4.

I think it is a really solid course which would be a pleasure to play on a regular basis.

[Jay Flemma]

I walked it OK...interesting factoid it has a front 10 and a back 8...you return to the clubhouse at 10.

I really like nos 5 and 6...great par 4s...esp 6.

[Doug Wright]

Matt et al,

How does this course stack up against Raven at Verrado, another recent west Valley offering that I played last month? I thought Raven at Verrado had some very good holes (eg 2, 8, 11-13, 16) and some middling ones.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

I concur with much of what you added. Don't know if you have played that many Engh designs but the totality of what you find at Lakota Canyon Ranch and Pradera does exceed what I found on my visit to Blackstone.

You see that's not a knock on Blackstone but it does raise some flags for me because Engh needs to move beyond certain tendencies that seem to keep coming up on different courses (e.g. the containment mounding by the greens is just one pet peeve that I have).

Jerry, when you say the greens are "great" at Blackstone I have to say I was not that wowed by many of them. In a number of instances you certainly get a few which are really outstanding -- the par-5 9th being one -- the par-3's on the inner half are all first rate. There are also a few others -- but there were nearly just as many that were fairly pedestrian -- the 18th hole -- both in tee, approach and green was quite ordinary in its overall character.

I still would recommend Blackstone for people to play but if they are an Engh fan and have played Lakota, Pradera and even Black Rock they may be in for just a tad of a letdown.

Kirk:

Blackstone is very capable in being walked. The layout is not on the same terrain as the flat layout called Sanctuary in Colorado.

Doug:

Good point -- Verrado is a match in my mind with Blackstone. The same situation applies -- you have superlative holes at both but the sheer totality and consistency of the routing and hole qualities are not present for the entire duration of the round.

Be interested in your comments on the 18th at Verrado -- very interesting choke point when the fairway falls off to the botton tier with the H20 pinching in from the right.

[Doug Wright]

Doug:

Be interested in your comments on the 18th at Verrado -- very interesting choke point when the fairway falls off to the botton tier with the H20 pinching in from the right.

Matt,

I thought the 18th at Verrado was pretty weak. The tee shot is pretty much hit it as hard as you can without fear since the fairway is extremely wide. The water doesn't really come into play on the tee shot IMO--as I recall it's a ways past the bottom of the hill. Plus the second shot didn't strike me as that challenging either because the green is so large and unprotected to the left side. The par 4 16th was a much better hole with demands on both shots.