[TEPaul]

JohnH:

Thanks for noticing that. I guess it was the US Amateur at Pebble Beach he played in that was 1947. He did play in the US Open at Oakmont that Hogan won. Maybe that was in the early 1950s. Nevertheless, just like my feeling in some state amateurs there he did say they were the fastest greens he'd seen anywhere.

[Mike_Cirba]

Are there any greens, anywhere, that don't "come alive" at green speeds at 11 or above?

Does that make them all good or interesting greens?

Putting on my kitchen floor makes it come alive too.

[TEPaul]

Not over 11 Mike, that's the point. 11 is where it should stop on any green, in my opinion. Between 10 and 11 is the magic differential. It's fun on most any greens and it's not crazy. Crazy begins to happen real quick on greens that are slopped and contoured when they get OVER 11. Between 10 and 11 they can be just incredibly interesting, imaginative and fun to play. You can just do so much more stuff that you can't do below 10.

[TEPaul]

"Putting on my kitchen floor makes it come alive too."

You must have a most interesting kitchen floor then with some nice slopes and contours in it. There is nothing remotely interesting or "alive" about putting on my kitchen floor.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

At LuLu last year, the speed was posted at 12.5' on May 13 when  the first 1 day member-guest was played. The super later said that the speed was higher than 13 but that he didn't want to post that and scare the players. Much too high for an old Donald Ross course but some members get a perverse pleasure of having super fast greens.By the way, thanks to my partner, we won low gross.

[Mike_Cirba]

Not over 11 Mike, that's the point. 11 is where it should stop on any green, in my opinion. Between 10 and 11 is the magic differential. It's fun on most any greens and it's not crazy. Crazy begins to happen real quick on greens that are slopped and contoured when they get OVER 11. Between 10 and 11 they can be just incredibly interesting, imaginative and fun to play. You can just do so much more stuff that you can't do below 10.

Tom,

My point is simply that any greens, anywhere, with anything in the way of internal contours or slope beyond .05 degrees start to get dicey and unnervering at speeds that quick.  

That doesn't make them all good greens from an architectural standpoint, however, which was sort of the initial thrust of this thread.  George's question to me seemed to be asking if the reason many modern greens are so seemingly banal and bland is because they need to be able to perform at speed limits approaching the Autobahn, at which point the real genius of their subtle breaks and tricky nuances are suddenly and mysteriously unveiled for all the world to see (which we could have seen previously if we were simply as prescient as the architect(s) in question).  

I say that's crap.  Recalling a round at a course your familiar with near Scranton where I did not have a putt all day break more than a foot and a half yet they stimped quickly and were therefore "challenging" from a putting perspective taught me all I need to know about what's being lost in "the need for speed".  

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I'm not sure what George intended to ask on this thread. It looks to me as if he said some modern greens have so little slope or contour they'd be boring at any speed.

So, just because some modern architects build greens like that for some reason does not at all mean to me that greens with some real slope and contour in them can not be a ball to play at speeds up to 11. That's my point. I've played a lot of great courses with greens that are up to a real 11---Oakmont years ago, PVGC, Merion, Rolling Green, PCC, HVGC, Seminole, NGLA, Shinnecock, Piping Rock, Crystal Downs, the list goes on. Those golf courses have wonderful greens with all kinds of interesting movement in some of their greens and playing them at up to 11 is a ball.

But my point is also that right over 11 and things will get crazy on almost every one of those courses.

So frankly, I have no idea why modern architects are building such flat and featureless putting surfaces if the ones I just named can work as well as they do between 10-11.

That's my point. But I also say that I don't think any greens need to be faster than that even if they are flat----there's just nothing to be gained that I can see. In my book, 11 on the stimp should be the world's green SPEED LIMIT!

I firmly believe that almost everyone on this board would have a ball playing all the courses I mentioned with green speeds between 10-11. They've probably never seen those courses like that.

I'm telling you it's a total blast. And it's not just the putting. Greens like that with some firmness to them just cast their own strategies all the way back to the tee. The approaches take on a whole different meaning because you really have to pay attention where you hit the ball. So does chipping, bunker play and all kinds of recovering. You've got to really concentrate, and who would really say that's not fun and gratifying. It makes you pay attention to all the big and little things about golf courses like never before.

Now just read that last paragraph again, and tell me what could be better than that? If you've never experienced a really good course like that you've just got to, and I guarantee you'll never be the same again. You'll be hooked.

But once again, in my opinion the world's greenspeed limit should be 11, definitely no more. Nothing anywhere needs more than that to be a blast, in my opinion.

[Ted Kramer]

Not over 11 Mike, that's the point. 11 is where it should stop on any green, in my opinion. Between 10 and 11 is the magic differential. It's fun on most any greens and it's not crazy. Crazy begins to happen real quick on greens that are slopped and contoured when they get OVER 11. Between 10 and 11 they can be just incredibly interesting, imaginative and fun to play. You can just do so much more stuff that you can't do below 10.

Tom,

My point is simply that any greens, anywhere, with anything in the way of internal contours or slope beyond .05 degrees start to get dicey and unnervering at speeds that quick.  

That doesn't make them all good greens from an architectural standpoint, however, which was sort of the initial thrust of this thread.  George's question to me seemed to be asking if the reason many modern greens are so seemingly banal and bland is because they need to be able to perform at speed limits approaching the Autobahn, at which point the real genius of their subtle breaks and tricky nuances are suddenly and mysteriously unveiled for all the world to see (which we could have seen previously if we were simply as prescient as the architect(s) in question).  

I say that's crap.  Recalling a round at a course your familiar with near Scranton where I did not have a putt all day break more than a foot and a half yet they stimped quickly and were therefore "challenging" from a putting perspective taught me all I need to know about what's being lost in "the need for speed".  

Mike,
I understand the point you are making.
And I would tend to agree with you.
However, there are courses upon which faster greens do add a different strategic dimension. For me, a lot of the specifics are tied to elevated greens and greens built into hillsides.

The greens at Pine Hill go from being pretty darn boring and relatively void of meaning at slower speeds all the way to incredibly strategic at higher speeds. It isn't only that they get tougher as they get faster, they become infinitely more interesting. The 12th is a great example, I'd be happy to offer details if you are interested . . .

-Ted

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I completely understand what you're saying and agree with you.  I think we're just arguing two different points.  I've played Maidstone and Crystal Downs (and likely others) at those speeds and I'm completely in concurrence.  It's almost like there's an electricity in the air.

Ted,

I'd certainly like to hear more from your perspective.  I think I get a bit irked when I hear of some courses that have generally bland greens (like Bethpage Black) that all of a sudden "come alive" when they stimped them at 13 for the US Open.  Well, heck...my great grandmother would come alive if you waxed her to that level!  

The problem that I see from such thinking is that it puts more and more pressure on superintendents to play the silly numbers game around the Stimpmeter, which has become the new long dong measuring stick of the game, where rivals clubmembers say essentially, "my stimp's bigger than yours".  

A visit to many area clubs this last summer, or to Muirfield Village last year to use a few examples, shows the vulnerability of grasses to the type of strain our Superintendents are asked to provide.

[TEPaul]

 "I've played Maidstone and Crystal Downs (and likely others) at those speeds and I'm completely in concurrence."

MikeC:

Crystal Downs can get their greens fast---eg Tom Doak (a member) thinks they've gotten them too fast in the past for those greens. I played in a member/guest there last summer and I was out early with the crew and watched them stimp a few greens which were close to 11. The course was fine with that speed, in my opinion, but the thing about that course with the poa is by the end of the day the speed is down below 10.

As for Maidstone, that course I know like the back of my hand. I think I played in the Maidstone Bowl for about 25 years and that's the weekend they get those greens as fast as they possible can get and I'll guarantee you it's physically impossible to get those greens above about 9 maybe 9.5. They have never been close to 11 in my experience, ever, and that's all tournament set up--eg that's as fast as they get them.

For a real 10-11 I'll get you over to GMGC this summer and show it to you---you won't believe how different it is, but a real blast.

Someone might tell you US Open greens are regularly 13 or something but don't you believe it. If greens get near that zone you'll have a Shinnecock on Sunday situation, or worse. And that's from the horse's mouth.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

At Crystal Downs a few greens approached unputtable, such as #11.  There is some serious slope to many of them and as much fun as they can be they border on being silly if the speed gets too much.

At Maidstone I was perhaps a bit off in my perception but the wind was howling pretty good and they got really dried out, esepcially greens like 9 & 10.  Amazing how far a barely touched putt will roll downhill, downwind.  

I'd love to take you up on your offer this summer.  As you know, I've not yet seen the work you all did with Gil and I'll look forward to it.

Thanks,
Mike

[Craig Sweet]

Anybody can get their greens fast. Keeping them alive at higher speeds is the trick.

Why put the grass through all that stress, spend all that extra money, if the course plays just fine with greens speeds from 9-11?

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