[Chris Kane]

James L, let us not forget that Woodlands, as good as it may be, is not even a sandbelt course - http://www.thesandbelt.com/  

I cannot agree with your comments about the bunkering at Kingston Heath disguising less than great architecture.  Great bunkering is at the heart of great architecture, particularly on the sandbelt where they are used as the principal hazard.  Would the tee shot on 10 be half as intimidating as it is with some Thomson pots?  The KH bunkers generally tie in perfectly with the green complexes (you have a valid point about the 6th), not to mention that they look fantastic.

The pitch on KH#3 easier than Woodlands #13?  You must be joking.  The pitch on the 3rd is absolutely terrifying, especially if you're coming from a less than perfect angle.  The green on 13 may be narrower, and objectively it might be more difficult to hit, but standing on the 3rd fairway it looks like a tougher shot.  That is entirely due to the influence of the bunkering, which reinforces my point above.

I do have to agree with you about the routing, and its unfair for you to be accused of box-ticking when all you're asking for is a balanced routing.  Kingston Heath does not have this, and its a testament to the quality of the green complexes and bunkering that it overcomes the relatively poor work of Soutar to be the second best pre-WW2 course in Australia.

I also agree about the size of the property - I've just had a look with Google Earth, and the property can't be any smaller than Commonwealth or Yarra, to name just two.

[James_Livingston]

Undoubtedly the best non sandbelt course in Melbourne though.

The pitch on KH#3 easier than Woodlands #13?  You must be joking.  The pitch on the 3rd is absolutely terrifying, especially if you're coming from a less than perfect angle.  The green on 13 may be narrower, and objectively it might be more difficult to hit, but standing on the 3rd fairway it looks like a tougher shot.  That is entirely due to the influence of the bunkering, which reinforces my point above.

Chris, I agree the pitch is terrifying if you aren't in the perfect position.  And the perfect position for me is the 4 iron laid up the lhs.  I quickly learnt that it is too terrifying to be anywhere else, which is why I mark it down slightly as I don't see the temptation.  And as I mentioned, I hit driver nearly everywhere.  That doesn't mean I don't think its a good hole.  A much better way of addressing technology advances in new courses would be to build more holes like it.  It is a shame there isn't a more tempting driveable 4 there for balance, the fact that Woodlands has managed 3 of such quality and variety is unique in my experience and gives it a major edge.

It is a terrifying pitch on 13 at Woodlands as well if you are even slightly to the right with acres of sand to carry and a very narrow green that slopes away.  And to display my consistency, the bunkering is overdone greenside short right there as well.

I cannot agree with your comments about the bunkering at Kingston Heath disguising less than great architecture.  Great bunkering is at the heart of great architecture, particularly on the sandbelt where they are used as the principal hazard.  Would the tee shot on 10 be half as intimidating as it is with some Thomson pots?  The KH bunkers generally tie in perfectly with the green complexes (you have a valid point about the 6th), not to mention that they look fantastic.

I'm not sure I agree great bunkering is at the heart of great architecture.  Whilst bad bunkering can be clearly detrimental, great bunkering more like cream on top, nice, but not necessary for great architecture.  Sod faced bunkering for example would do the job perfectly well in terms of strategy around most of KH.  The front trap on 3 is sod faced isn't it?  Or would you be even more terrified if it was like 10? I have just had the sense that many go there, see the bunkers and go wow, that looks awesome, confusing the aesthetic with the architectural.  And the use of perjoratives like box ticker so early in the piece suggested to me that perhaps the defenses of the proponents of KH's architecture aren't as stout as they may have thought.

[Chris Kane]

James L, no arguing that Woodlands #13 is a terrifying pitch from the wrong location in the fairway, but I'd argue the green is less versatile than the one at KH.  There are two "suicide" hole locations on the KH hole - back right and front, while there is only one at the Woodlands hole - at the front.  Should the pin be anywhere else, there is significantly less intimidation - so much room to land your ball, and recovering for par is easier.  Of course, both holes are potential card-wreckers in the wind, even after a good drive.

As you might be aware the Victorian Open is at Woodlands next week.  I'm caddying for Clayts, so you should approach us and introduce yourself.  It would be a perfect opportunity to discuss just how good Woodlands is, and perhaps you could apologise for your cheap shot.

[James_Livingston]

I cannot agree with your comments about the bunkering at Kingston Heath disguising less than great architecture.  Great bunkering is at the heart of great architecture, particularly on the sandbelt where they are used as the principal hazard.  Would the tee shot on 10 be half as intimidating as it is with some Thomson pots?  The KH bunkers generally tie in perfectly with the green complexes (you have a valid point about the 6th), not to mention that they look fantastic.

Pondering this in the context of Woodlands v KH, do you think the bunkering is sufficiently superior at KH to make up for its shortcomings in routing and variety?  I don't see there is an argument that it is of insufficient quality to detract from the architecture.  Mike described it in Golf from the Inside as "some of the finest on the sandbelt and, for consistency of quality and drama, behind only Royal and Kingston Heath".  It would not surprise me if there was more Morcom left at Woodlands than anywhere else on the sandbelt.

You can do the same with the start although the 1st at Woodlands is the poorest hole on both courses.

After pondering this one a bit more I've concluded that KH#2 is the worst hole at the two courses.  Massive bunkering down the left which deliver no real advantage if you drive close to them.  Take them on and win and you are a good chance of losing your ball in the rough on the other side from memory.  And the coup de grace are the mounds on the RHS and a green which is serviceable but nothing special bunkered either side.  A strategic and visual mess.

As you might be aware the Victorian Open is at Woodlands next week.  I'm caddying for Clayts, so you should approach us and introduce yourself.  It would be a perfect opportunity to discuss just how good Woodlands is, and perhaps you could apologise for your cheap shot.

I wasn't aware of that, but will be in Sydney until Friday.  I may be able to get down on the weekend, so you had better do a good job and make sure he makes the cut.  And if it makes you feel any better I also rate Mike's routing at Ranfurlie as much better than KH, offering plenty of variety, although I'll spare you the thesis.  And I'll bet that was a smaller site as well.

[Chris Kane]

After pondering this one a bit more I've decided KH#2 is the worst hole at the two courses.  Massive bunkering down the left which deliver no real advantage if you drive close to them.  Take them on and win and you are a good chance of losing your ball in the rough on the other side from memory.  And the coup de grace are the mounds on the RHS and a green which is serviceable but nothing special bunkered either side.  A strategic and visual mess.

Amen.  How this hole gets a free pass from those who should know better beats me.  It is easily the worst tee shot you'll find on one of Melbourne's best 3-4 courses.  

I wasn't aware of that, but will be in Sydney until Friday.  I may be able to get down on the weekend, so you had better do a good job and make sure he makes the cut.

Its a three round tournament starting on Friday, with the cut made on Saturday night.  You have no excuse.  See you there.

[ed_getka]

Wow. What a great thread, I learned a ton from this. Very useful info for my trip next year.

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