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TEPaul

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2006, 10:34:35 AM »
I think it's just great to see all these architect contributors  talking back and forth like this on here about their profession and the ASGCA. I've never actually tried to print out an entire thread but this one may be a good candidate. Anybody ever tried that?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2006, 10:40:33 AM »
Tom,

I would highlight everthing right click and copy, then open a word document and paste into Word.  If you have recent version it will give you a box that ask to keep existing format or match destination format, I would choose match destination format.  I do it all the time, takes a little editing but once done you have a your own word file.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2006, 10:45:19 AM »
You should send Brauer a bill — his posts are the longest. :)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2006, 10:50:24 AM »
Tom,
I would use send topic to email it to myself and then print the email message when it arrived. Note, I am not saying I have tried this before.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2006, 01:13:03 PM »
Jerry — I do not believe I commented on when or how long the five course requirement was in effect. It has been a long time.



When I was twelve (12) I sent away for membership information to the ASGCA. That was a long thirty years, but I consider it worth the wait. (I was somewhat miffed that the requirements had gone from three to five courses, though!)


I was curious when it went from 3 to 5 course and what period of time those 3-5 were built.
I am not sure how long you have been a members either.
Times flys and your the pilot !

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2006, 01:26:35 PM »

I did that with Greg Muirhead and Steve Forrest before I applied - its the $1500 non refunable which is rediculous and frustrating - and I assume that's your issue.


YES, that is partly it.

Quote

...Nobody is going to invite you

You didn’t get a letter ?    :)

No Doubt Ian, but knowing the requirements does limit the applications or invitations, call them what you want. I HAVE been invited by other members to join. Of course they never came after me like they did JN AFTER he was allegedly denied membership the first time he applied. May have been that collaboration thing again... ;)

Quote

 It does not affect your ability to get work, but it is a fun group to hang around with for a week. There are no hidden secrets about how to be successful as an architect - almost everything the society does is published or covered in golf magazines. Your essentially paying to have the society lobby on your behalf on a series of issues that affect you as a designer.

And this is ALL I would get a ASGCA member? A Lobby group and a chance to Hang out with the boys for a week?

That is almost as bad a saying you get the magazine for the GCSAA membership and that is the only benefit. :-[

Surely there Must be more advantages to membership. I am not much on letters behind my name. I laugh when I do work in China and ever 22 year has 4 sets of letters behind their name and know didly squat!. I am after the education to become better, better for me and my clients.

Times flys and your the pilot !

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2006, 01:28:03 PM »
Jerry — I was wrong. It was five when I received my application as a twelve-year-old. The difference (which I knew was there) was that there was no formal requirement that three of the five be recent. That requirement affects a fair number of applicants — that a majority of the five completed courses be within the past five years (I think that is correct.)

Best you consult with the current membership chair, Jan Beljan.

Sorry for the mis-information.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 01:28:45 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2006, 01:30:20 PM »
You get out of any such group what you put in. That is all you really need to know.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2006, 01:31:23 PM »
I understand that in 06', a few more changes were approved. Any ideal what may have changed.
I need to get the application again as the 05' I have is out of date.
Maybe they have made the application fee refundable ;)

Times flys and your the pilot !

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2006, 01:34:09 PM »
You get out of any such group what you put in. That is all you really need to know.
I agree and would put a lot (all I could offer) into it if I join. Of course I think it would be more beneficial that Ian said, and I pointed out about the magazine.
Times flys and your the pilot !

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2006, 03:58:21 PM »
Maybe they should use the Augusta National system for membership. If someone does a lot of courses or is very knowledgeable or appears to be valuable to the society in any other way, just make him an automatic member. Don't ask, just send bill :)

If they don't get the message, maybe switch from Augusta mode to Cosa Nostra mode and explain that these very good friends have just made you an offer you cannot refuse :)

Any kind of formal application process will be fair, but more or less detrimental to the goals of the society itself. I'm sure there are scientists out there, who have never built a course, but understand more than any practitioner about certain areas of the field. And I'm equally sure that some members, who qualify according to the formal criteria, do not put anything into the society and hence are fairly worthless.

So, from an outsider's point of view: if you want to excel, stop being fair. If you want to be universal, be fair.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #86 on: February 19, 2006, 07:01:18 PM »
Ulrich,

Good idea on just sending a bill! Think we should do that for Tom D?

Jerry,

I always felt I got twice what I put into ASGCA, and I have put in a lot!  It's like the Mastercard commericials....

Monthly reading of ASGCA newsletter......$35.53

Opportunity to play Pine Valley.....$450

Occaisional moment of Clarity, obtained by talking to another member one on one and finding he/she has the same problems you do........priceless!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2006, 09:16:13 AM »
VERY interesting stuff!!!!!!!!!!!  thanks to all of you who have contributed your thoughts on this thread....

199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2006, 09:24:34 AM »
 
Quote

And this is ALL I would get a ASGCA member? A Lobby group and a chance to Hang out with the boys for a week?

That is almost as bad a saying you get the magazine for the GCSAA membership and that is the only benefit. :-[

Surely there Must be more advantages to membership. I am not much on letters behind my name. I laugh when I do work in China and ever 22 year has 4 sets of letters behind their name and know didly squat!. I am after the education to become better, better for me and my clients.


Quote

Jerry,

Sometimes ASGCA members have an inside track on a course, like a municipal course and they help write the RFP and they insert in the requirements that the submitting group must have an architect who is an ASGCA member, so if you are a member it probably broadens the number of projects you can qualify for, otherwise there are projects for which you will not be qualified.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2006, 09:32:38 AM »
I deleted my posts on the ASGCA way back on the first page out of respect for others to choose their own paths.....but, after following the free association and discourse that's ensued, I feel the need to point out that this little forum demonstrates what the ASGCA already is for some, and could be for others......and by including 'maverick outsiders' [Jeffs choice of words], as maverick insiders, it would only strengthen the organization and bode well for its future......it has already included one Maverick [albeit posthumously].

.....which, like the song says so well, [but without naming people as I swore that off], "one way... or another, we're gonna git cha,...we're gonna gitcha gitcha gitcha".... ;)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 09:46:11 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2006, 10:09:14 AM »
Quote
Sometimes ASGCA members have an inside track on a course, like a municipal course and they help write the RFP and they insert in the requirements that the submitting group must have an architect who is an ASGCA member, so if you are a member it probably broadens the number of projects you can qualify for, otherwise there are projects for which you will not be qualified.

I have not seen that but have bid projects, where it says "ASGCA member OR have experience in the design of  X# of courses"

So does membership have it's privileges? I am sure. And I agree you do get what you put in it.

In the end will I get additional projects as a member?
To me that is where the rubber meets the road.
I suspect it will  but others like myself who are non members have gotten jobs without showing up in plaid coats.

Like Paul said, I think the group "would benefit with some additions" via a  slightly lower  admission standard.


« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 10:10:06 AM by Jerry Lemons »
Times flys and your the pilot !

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2006, 10:28:58 AM »
Kelly,

If you don't like that RFP, blame me. I wrote it.......however, I have rarely seen an interview requiring all ASGCA members. If a qualified non member hears of a job and asks to get in on the RFP process, it usually happens in my experience.  The one that bugs me is those (not in the standard ASGCA RFP) is the clients who ask for CAD and back off.  Of course, that is self serving on my part, as well.

Jerry,

With all due respect to the talented, but not as experienced architects, wouldn't you  prefer that ASGCA keeps its standards high, so that when you do join, it really means something?  If getting in was easy, it wouldn't be as valued..........

Besides, we have the problem of all the recent joinees, like Paul and Ian who would complain that they had to go through a rigorous process, and waited a long time to get in, only to find its easier next year?  I am afraid that won't fly!  

I have been involved in the entire membership/bylaws process and while it doesn't work out for every one desiring membership, it has some logic behind it.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2006, 10:35:15 AM »
"So does membership have it's privileges? I am sure. And I agree you do get what you put in it.

In the end will I get additional projects as a member?
To me that is where the rubber meets the road."

I guess if you are paying the bills that can be your expectation, however that seems blatantly self serving and I hope that is not why people belong, although I probably need a reality check.  

I think the organization needs to serve its members needs, but more importantly it needs to serve the needs of the game, architecture and the game are intertwined, you really should not separate one from the other, and therefore in any endeavor the organization should always ask if whatever lobbying they do is it in the best interest of the game.  I think if we all acted on behalf of the game and did not expect an organization to pad our careers things would be better.  This would involve actively participating in issues like technology and equipment, maintenance standards and stimp meters, etc.  They may very well tackle these issues in forceful ways, but that to me are some of the items of greater priority rather than designing programs to just help their members get jobs.  I think someone refered to the Remodeling U as just such a program.  I don't know if that is true or not.  Frankly, I think an organization that must be neutral on some of the issues that most concern golfers like technology and maintenance costs can not be as effective as an organization that has members who share a particular design philosophy, that to me would be a more energizing and effective organization, and typically those types of organizations are more loose and informal, but still can be more influential on important issues as compared to some large organization that must be all inclusive of many view points.  

Jeff it wasn't you but it was someone who is participating here, and it was an ironclad requirement.  My group wanted to use a retired member as a front and I wouldn't agree to it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 10:38:35 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2006, 12:05:01 PM »
Kelly,

"I think the organization needs to serve its members needs, but more importantly it needs to serve the needs of the game, architecture and the game are intertwined, you really should not separate one from the other, and therefore in any endeavor the organization should always ask if whatever lobbying they do is it in the best interest of the game."

I think ASGCA does that, by assisting in making courses more environmentally friendly, tackling affordable golf, etc.


"This would involve actively participating in issues like technology and equipment, maintenance standards and stimp meters, etc.  They may very well tackle these issues in forceful ways, but that to me are some of the items of greater priority rather than designing programs to just help their members get jobs.  I think someone refered to the Remodeling U as just such a program.  I don't know if that is true or not. "


ASGCA has members sitting on the USGA implements committee.  Damian Pascusso as President took a forceful stand on rolling the ball back.  Say what you will about remodel U, its intent is to educate greens committees (just as the USGA does with its seminars) so they make better decisions.


"Frankly, I think an organization that must be neutral on some of the issues that most concern golfers like technology and maintenance costs can not be as effective as an organization that has members who share a particular design philosophy, that to me would be a more energizing and effective organization, and typically those types of organizations are more loose and informal, but still can be more influential on important issues as compared to some large organization that must be all inclusive of many view points. "


Yes, we must be neutral on some things.  For instance, I doubt that within the golf world that the "technology issue" is proven to affect the average golfer as much as some intellectuals assume.  As noted, we have input to the USGA, although obviously no final say.

Our members specifically take pride in their differing design philosphies! Small groups, like the Donald Ross Society can pursue their own agendas, which are more limited by definition.  We will never be a "restoration society" because its only a small part of design.

In the end, I, having been involved in ASGCA know we have done many things.  Are we perfect? Of course not.  Do we have some inherent limitations, including lack of funds, number of members, and differing view points?  Of course, yes.  But it does rankle my feathers when someone posts here about what we "ought to be doing" or what we don't do, etc. without really knowing, just spouting off.

PS - when talking about the RFP, I wrote the ASGCA 'standard" RFP, intended to give first time owners a guide (to be tailored to their needs) on how to look for the proper qualifications of a gca.  I think it does that quite well in laying out a solid process.  

Did I include hiring an ASGCA member in the standard text?  You bet! But, as noted, I rarely see it enforced, and it certainly is not binding on the Owner who obtains it from ASGCA, as we expect them to modify it.  In that way, doesn't the document enhance the game, by helping Owners make a more intelligent decision?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2006, 12:24:34 PM »


Quote
With all due respect to the talented, but not as experienced architects, wouldn't you  prefer that ASGCA keeps its standards high, so that when you do join, it really means something?  If getting in was easy, it wouldn't be as valued..........

Besides, we have the problem of all the recent joinees, like Paul and Ian who would complain that they had to go through a rigorous process, and waited a long time to get in, only to find its easier next year?  I am afraid that won't fly!

I have been involved in the entire membership/bylaws process and while it doesn't work out for every one desiring membership, it has some logic behind it.

I could not agree with you more Jeff, unfortunately you are right on all points but.....

Quote
Did I include hiring an ASGCA member in the standard text?  You bet! …


This comment further solidifies my opinion that the society would like to remain too exclusive. My first employer in the golf business as a superintendent  posed this question to me and then answered it,
How am I going to hire you without any experience?   He gave me that job.

Once can’t gain experience and credentials with our first being given an opportunity to work.

Those of us who stared out on our own really really appreciate someone letting us design that first course!

That was a great break as well as the next.

IMHO In the GCA business, the  Society would be better served with Classifications A , B &  C  members based on experience.  A “C” member would be one getting in the association but just starting with a firm, interning or without 5 golf courses under their belt, A “B” might be 3 and an “A” current status.
Would this not satisfy the proper growth ?
Times flys and your the pilot !

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #95 on: February 20, 2006, 12:41:56 PM »
Jerry,

As much as I love ASGCA, I know that those who aren't in but want to be feel a tinge of regret, and a sense of unfairness in the system and requirements.  Again, it would be hard for us to change, and believe me, we have looked at all the philosophical ramifications for applicants and existing members.

I still think its hard in the dynamics of the group to have different classes of gca's.  Would we sit you with a scarlet "C" over in the corner?  Maybe that is a part of the social aspect of the group, but we like solidarity.  If you are qualified by experience to design a golf course, you are in and in fully.  If not, then like others, you will just have to wait until you get the five courses and apply.

Lots of folks get that experience every year - it seems like we have over a dozen applicants a year now. I agree its harder for someone coming up outside the normal channels to get in, and tracking down members via calls, emails, or at trade shows is highly recommended.  That's how most overcome those barriers.  However, we don't set any limits on how many get in each year, and most members want every ethically practising golf course architect to join when ready.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #96 on: February 20, 2006, 02:25:22 PM »
Jeff ....good posts as a defender of the Society, much better for me to read along than try to create....Forrest you are  ;)K too.

I do want to explain that I never felt that the two year process it took me to join was at all rigorous....if anything it gave me a greater appreciation and knowledge about the Society and how it functioned as well as what it stands for.
I also feel that if ones primary purpose for joining is to create an avenue for increased work you are probably joining for the wrong reason....personally I joined because I felt it was the next step in the progression of my career, another standard to achieve.... I joined for my personal benefit foremost and acceptance was a measure of my own ability against those who I considered my professional peers, primarily because this same peer group not only is the one that evaluates your work but also is whom one competes with in the marketplace.
....My expectations from membership consist of enjoying the opportunity to commune with and learn from other members in a social setting [and meet Jeff Brauer!] and contribute in some fashion to the Game that employs me [I might even unveil that fashion next month in my circa 1700's golf attire and play clubs]....for many GCArchitects this can be a solitary work existence. One of my most enjoyable work experiences to date was being the Love Design Associate during the simultaneous construction of the four Barefoot courses and the daily opportunity to see not only see the work of others, but to meet and interact with those responsible for each of the other courses.
I think the Society will provide a similar format.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2006, 02:27:27 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #97 on: February 20, 2006, 02:41:46 PM »
Paul,

Well put.  I think we all feel like we are in our little offices and don't know what's going on "out there" whatever out there is.  Getting together with others is a tonic for that ailment, whether at the GIS or ASGCA meetings.

Eric and I were discussing whether we really want to play in Knickers and with Hickories at Pinehurst.........It would be educational, that is for sure.

BTW, if you want to be paired with me, try to play bad.  The old saying "play bad and get bad pairings" is as true in the ASGCA tourney as anywhere.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2006, 03:02:50 PM »
Jeff...I would be more than happy to join your group...if you will have me 'cause I will be the one in a great kilt, sporran and pampooties and I will insist on being able to play from the 'ladies' with my three spoons....all of which I can assure you is a formidable handicap on its own.
....but I'll take four a side from you and a few more than that from Eric.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2006, 05:10:15 PM »
"The American Society of Golf Course Architects has a new form designed to assist anyone interested in golf course development or remodeling.

The free “Request for Proposal for Golf Course Architectural Services” is a comprehensive for developers, owners, superintendents and managers that addresses key elements of a project, including general notice, scope of services, owner's responsibilities, submittal requirements and the selection process.

“The ‘Request for Proposal' document benefits everyone involved in a golf course project," says Tom Marzolf, ASGCA president.
“It's useful for first-timers who have never been involved in a golf venture, and even managers and committee members who have been down this path before.”

Jeff is this the one you wrote where it specifies that only members of the ASGCA can submit a proposal.    ::)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 05:10:49 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »

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