[Craig Van Egmond]

Here you go and the the number 1 is.....


http://www.supernewsmag.com/news/golfweek/supernews/20060301/p20.asp

[wsmorrison]

Interesting that Howard Toomey, who never designed a golf course, is given credit for 7 courses.  Toomey was not a course designer.  If proper credit is given to Flynn for his design of Kittansett (Hood oversaw construction according to Flynn's plans which still exist) and at Merion where 1, 2green, 6green, 8green,  10, 11, 12, 13, 14green and most bunkers and many tees are Flynn then he would have 13 out of the top 100 on this list.  Not bad for a guy that only designed 50 courses and redesigned 20.

[RDecker]

When was the last time a course other than Pine Valley was rated No. 1 ?

[Craig Van Egmond]

RDecler,

Golf Digest rated Pebble Beach #1 a couple of years back, but this is the first time GW has a course other than Pine Valley in the 10 years they have been doing it.


Wayne,

     Was Howard Toomey the construction guy? Did Flynn design and Toomey build the courses?

[ForkaB]

Hmmmm.

Since Pebble Beach is better than Cypress Point, Pine Valley must be no higher than #3.......

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I think given the extent of the work Tom Doak did, and outstanding at that--significant improvements from what was on the ground when he got there and also in some cases from Flynn's work (it was 1923 after all and he couldn't do some things that can be done today).  I would say it is fair to give him enough credit that it can be considered equal.  After all, Flynn wasn't the first man in there either...Flynn's routing was pretty close to the pre-existing one.  

Craig,

Howard Toomey was the engineer.  William Flynn was the only designer (even Gordon, Lawrence and Wilson did not do design work) and Flynn did his work under the corporate entity William S. Flynn, Golf Course Architect.  The engineering and construction was done by Toomey and Flynn, Contracting Engineers.   Most of Flynn's courses, especially after 1921, were built by Toomey and Flynn.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S.:  My name is in the shadows on a lot of classic courses, and I've insisted on that.  

Atlantic City asked us to make some dramatic changes to the course.  They closed the course for 18 months, we rerouted 4-5 holes, moved the greens of some others, rebuilt every tee, green and bunker, even moved earth in several fairways.  I list it as a new course on my web site, it's really very different although the framework of the routing is generally the same.  

[David Wigler]

IMO this is the best Golfweek has ever done.  The expansion of the rating's panel has really paid off.  If I had to list my two biggest surprises they would be that Butler National jumped all the way from 87 to 35.  That is a huge leap for a club that I do not think made any major changes.  The other surprise would be that Franklin Hills only jumped from 79 to 63.  The restoration work there is fantastic.  I would bet it is a combination of the strength of the classical list as a whole and Franklin's ratings still be held back a little by the old ratings from people who have not seen it since it was restored.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Could it be the restoration work at Cypress gave it the push it needed to overtake Pine Valley.  Will this cause PV to do a little tree cleanup or do they care about rankings.

Bandon Trails debuts pretty high for a newcomer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Well, it's now almost 5:00pm and I've yet to see a single post that criticized anything on either the modern or classic listing.  That HAS to be a record here on GCA for the initial day of any ranking list by the major periodicals.

Are the Golfweek rankings that accurate as to be wholly beyond dispute?  That would certainly be a first with this group!  

Or, like Mackenzie when he finished Cypress Point and heard not a word of criticism, and was left to wonder what was wrong.....?  

[Tom_Doak]

I still think the modern rankings are a mish-mosh of different courses and different styles; once you get outside the top 5 or 10 I can't imagine you could find five different panelists who could agree at all about the order the rest are in.  But, honestly, those placings aren't worth arguing about.

And I wonder how The Pete Dye Golf Club can continue to be ranked as his best work and a top 5 course, even though so few people go there.  I haven't heard anyone even mention it as a great course on GCA in the past 2-3 years.

P.S.  There were, in fact, some recent changes to Butler National to put a new coat of toughness on it.

[RSLivingston_III]

Mike,
I am wondering the same thing. Up for nine hours and still only part way through the first page. I would have thought about a page an hour.

[Bill_McBride]

Cypress Point now at #1 kinda makes those who were whining about the too-white bunkers look a bit off the mark, eh?  

[Jim Thompson]

Without trying to be presumptious, just how exactly does one get their course on the GolfWeek radar screen?

[Andy Troeger]

I still think the modern rankings are a mish-mosh of different courses and different styles; once you get outside the top 5 or 10 I can't imagine you could find five different panelists who could agree at all about the order the rest are in.  But, honestly, those placings aren't worth arguing about.

And I wonder how The Pete Dye Golf Club can continue to be ranked as his best work and a top 5 course, even though so few people go there.  I haven't heard anyone even mention it as a great course on GCA in the past 2-3 years.

P.S.  There were, in fact, some recent changes to Butler National to put a new coat of toughness on it.

Tom,
I kind of wonder if we all could even agree on the top 5 or 10 modern courses.  I've not played enough of them to really know, but I agree that my personal ranking of the best courses I've played differs from their order on any of the publications lists that I've seen.

[Jay Cox]

I am thrilled with Yale moving onto the classic list -- and straight to 60, too.   Massive kudos to Scott Ramsay, and to everyone else who has put so much work into the place for the past few years.  
Yale and Atlantic City are the most interesting inclusions on the classic list IMO.  I'm looking forward to seeing ACCC again even more now.  Congratulations to Tom; the course, IMO, was not remotely in this league before.

[Mike_Cirba]

Cypress Point now at #1 kinda makes those who were whining about the too-white bunkers look a bit off the mark, eh?  

Bill,

No, they're still too white and the frilly outlines don't look the same against thick green grass as they did originally against the much more sandy dunes that were originally there when Mackenzie built the course, and they don't integrate visually in the same way, but hey....we're complaining about the clouds in heaven, aren't we.

[David Wigler]

Without trying to be presumptious, just how exactly does one get their course on the GolfWeek radar screen?

Jim,

The best answer is to send an e-mail or IM to Dr. Klein informing him that this summer you would like raters to come out and see your course.

Dave

[Brad Klein]

David, you have dared to reveal the industry secret! Yes, the process is really pretty simple. Just send me a note (bklein@golfweek.com) and we'll attend to it right away, including adding a course to the ballot if it seems at all a possible candidate for one of our ratings lists. It's Web-based voting so there's no reson we can't add plenty of courses - and do.

[John Kirk]

Two courses jumped siginificantly higher on the Classic course list, Pasatiempo (50 to 33) and Congressional (58 to 34).  I have no idea about Congressional, but felt that Pasatiempo deserved the promotion.  It possesses many of the attributes we value here at GCA, and the only major drawback is the claustrophobic treelines on holes 1, 6, 7, and 9.  It's a great course.

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