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T_MacWood

A golf architect's personal style
« on: February 07, 2006, 01:50:08 PM »
Do you have a style or aesthetic or design approach?

How would you describe the style of golf course you build...what are its characteristics? What were your most significant influences that helped to develop your current style?

Mike_Young

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2006, 03:06:33 PM »
Let's see....I have a plaque in my office that says "who are they?"  and I try my best to adhere to that and just work with what I think works for the particular situation....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2006, 04:02:13 PM »
Tom,

Not a bad question, and I just submitted an article for Golf Course News on that very subject, shamelessly using myself as an example of how a gca is influenced by various things.  I actually have a longer version in the works for Cybergolf.  
Read on:

What Influences Your Golf Course Architect?
Jeffrey D. Brauer


The saying “horses for courses” describes players likely to win at a certain venue.  However, it also applies to selecting golf course architects to be successful at particular projects, since each one is unique.  Most designers have a style and most clients understandably pick them based on previous work.  Frankly, you hate to hear your Golf Course Architect (or airline pilot) saying “Hold on, I want to try something new.”  Beyond investigating the past works of your proposed Golf Course Architect, you might want to consider the underlying conscious or sub-conscious influences of their designs as a barometer of how they will perform for you.  These influences, shamelessly using myself as an example may include:

Personality

I have taken personality tests (yes, I have one!) and have a classic “Designer” profile.  If I had never played golf, I would now be a city planner, furniture designer or landscape architect.  But not every Golf Course Architect has a “designer” personality.  It’s not required to obtain a landscape architecture degree (or apprentice under your father!).  Non designers designing courses tend to have less flare.  If you need practical design, that may be just fine, but it usually isn’t.

Mentors – Direct and Indirect

Like most architects, I have been also been indirectly influenced by classic courses I have played around the world, learning that there are many different ways to design golf courses that my contemporaries rarely consider!  A well traveled Golf Course Architect is a usually better choice than one who isn’t interested in learning from others, but an architect’s own mentors usually have the biggest influence.  I still do many things in similar ways as my mentors, who ingrained these ideas:

•   If it can’t be maintained, it won’t last.
•   If it can be built, it can be drawn
•   If it can be drawn, you can predict a budget and that budget doesn’t have to be huge

While a lot has changed, I still draw plans, do estimates and usually opt for maintainable designs.  While I would have never coined a name like minimalism to market my services, I came of age in the minimalist tradition of grading fairways only where required for vision, creating surface pitch for drainage, or to flatten the fairways to playable slopes.  Architects with different training strip more topsoil and move more earth, but I have created nice golf courses moving less than 100,000 cubic yards of earth.  

If you have a budget, you might want to consider an architect who has also done that with good results.  Golf Course Architects with other training might draw on napkins, never meet a budget and disregard the cost of maintenance completely. At least, many are famous for doing just that!

My beliefs actually came from my mentor’s mentor, who owned golf courses during the depression.  His courses required only two maintenance workers - one for greens mowing and bunker raking (which were big ovals for efficiency) and another for gang mowing fairways.  Like him, I am influenced by career timing, having entered the profession in 1977 when golf economics of were similar to today.  I welcome the return to practical golf.  Architects entering in better times, apprenticing under famous architects, or with bigger construction and maintenance budgets probably view those times as “normal” and the current need for practicality a nuisance, which is a vastly different perspective.  

Training

To become a Golf Course Architect, I had the traditional training of studying landscape architecture, surveying, aerial photography, agronomy, and drainage to learn the business.  This training is important since new courses require accurate plans and quantity calculations to meet environmental standards.  Architects coming from other backgrounds may have to learn on the job – but hopefully not your job.  

If you want a course that looks and functions as well as it plays, you should probably consider someone with landscape architectural training, supplemented by a lengthy apprenticeship at an established firm.

Perhaps the greatest lesson learned in my apprenticeship was that there are no bad golf course design projects!  I was once lobbied for a high budget project over a lower budget one to show off my skills (sounding very much like a typical NBA player).  I was told that if I couldn’t do a superior design on a lower budget, I wasn’t the designer they thought I was!  

Artistic Influence

My artistic approach is influenced by my landscape architectural education, which taught me general art principles, but my courses most closely emulate those of 1950’s architect Dick Wilson.  Why?  It’s because my mentors consciously emulated his design style to change their image from their mentor.  I picked up that style, slowly making my own changes to distinguish myself from them.

Golf Background

An architect’s golfing ability influences their design less than generally presumed.  As a recreational golfer, I design for playability and “interesting, even if less “fair” features” – whatever that is!  (It is mostly the topic for another column) but have learned about shot values for great competitive players by collaborating with Tour Pros.  Conversely, many good players consider their caliber golfers first, but work to reduce difficulty for others, often based on what they see in pro-ams.

Golf background may play a bigger role in design style.  I was introduced to golf at a country club by a neighbor, but despite several membership drives, my father never would “pop” for a membership and I was soon golfing on public courses.  While I am comfortable in a Country Club setting, I still love public golf course design, knowing that turning budget (or other) limitations to your client’s advantage is fun, and generally helps the game of golf more than projects with extravagant budgets.

Some Golf Course Architects refuse public course design projects and others wouldn’t feel comfortable in a private club setting.  Some turn down very small projects, or technical projects like improving drainage.

Professional Background

Over 20 years, I have slowly realized that good golf course design requires us to be forceful in our demands for golf course acreage, when housing developers or land planners don’t consider the golf course to be as important, or when club members don’t want to spend the proper amount to complete a project correctly.   While being agreeable is generally a good thing for a Golf Course Architect, sometimes it pays to have someone with the experience – and gumption – to tell you no when he/she needs to.

Critics

Golf Course Architects are influenced by critics, magazine rankings, and even internet discussion boards.  A Golf Course Architect who has been pummeled by critics more than usual lately may be more conservative, while one who has never experienced bad reviews might be overly aggressive.  Usually, neither is a good thing.  An architect who has progressed through his career with a generally upward trend is a good barometer for you.  You want one who can think out of the box (does the firm have any unique projects, or do they repeat the same design every time?) but not take overly wild chances.  (Those of us with experience try not to make the same mistake twice!)

If you are interviewing Golf Course Architects any time soon, delving into these areas might give you a better picture of how your relationship will turn out, and more importantly, how your project will turn out.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2006, 05:33:40 PM »
Jeff,

Thanks for posting that for everybody. Great read!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2006, 05:47:40 PM »
Kyle,

Thanks.  After someone else started a thread a few weeks ago, I got to thinking about what really influences a gca.  That is what I came up with.  I was going to post it here first, but frankly, I get paid for writing elsewhere!

The question still stands for the other gca's on the board:  Why don't you use the format I laid out and try to assess where your deepest influences come from?

It would be a fun read for all of us.....

Tom? Mike? Kelly? Mike N? Others?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2006, 07:34:30 PM »
Jeff:  I'm doing this on the fly, so I'm sure I will leave stuff out, but here goes.  My influences are as follows:

My mom (of Scots ancestry) grew up in the Depression on a farm in Missouri, so I have always been acutely aware that times are not always good and that a golf course should be planned to hold its head up under tougher circumstances than today.  For a while that view held me back from attracting clients who wanted "the best" at whatever cost, but now I've learned to frame the question in terms of maximizing the land instead of minimizing the budget.

By the time I saw my mom play golf she was in her late 50's (I was born when she was 42), and she wasn't too strong.  She was dearly afraid of holding up anyone else on the course, but she really loved to be out there as much as better golfers do.  So from the beginning, I've been sympathetic to making my courses playable for golfers of lesser strength.

My early experience of golf was witness to the contrast between the small public course I grew up on (Sterling Farms in CT, designed by Geoff Cornish for $1000) and the great resort courses I saw as a pre-teen (Harbour Town, Pebble Beach, Pinehurst No. 2).  I learned from experience that courses could be different, and were in fact more appealing the more different they were.

My year in the UK and Ireland after college was a huge influence on me.  I had already seen many of the great courses in America and thought I understood design pretty well, but I was blown away by the wider range of golf holes I saw in the UK, all of which went back to using the land as they found it.

I learned everything I know about construction from my time with Pete and Alice Dye, and they are the ones who are responsible for my construction-based approach to design.  They were clear in telling me that anyone could have good ideas on design, but only the people who could translate those ideas into the dirt would ultimately shine.  

At the same time, Pete told me a story the first month I worked for him about how he had changed directions style-wise at Harbour Town in response to what he had seen of Robert Trent Jones' work at Palmetto Dunes, and a belief that he had to do something different ... so when the time came for me to design on my own, it was easy to drop the Pete Dye "style" and go back to the things I'd seen on classic courses and on the links of Scotland.

There are lots of other people who have influenced my ideas on the game and on design ... Walter Woods, Ben Crenshaw, Tom Mead, Jim Urbina, and Neal Iverson all taught me a great deal of their expertise on various aspects of design.

Certainly my golfing skill set has influenced my theory of design, as it does for every architect.  I believe it's an advantage that I can remember my days as a beginner and play to a 10, but that I've played and talked about design with some of the best players in the world and I was just good enough that I could appreciate how much more talented they are than we are.  I've always believed that the average golfer had more chance to learn to chip and putt than to drive 285 yards, so my courses concentrate more on those elements.

Oh, and having been involved with golf course rankings for 15 years, I learned that they are a ridiculously inexact science and not worth paying attention to, apart from the fact that they have a lot to do with how much a designer can charge for his services!  
 

PThomas

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2006, 07:36:13 PM »
very interesting Jeff and Tom - thanks!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dave Bourgeois

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2006, 09:06:49 PM »
I also hope that the others chime in.  Very interesting reading and helpful to understanding why the end product looks as it does for different architects.  I never considered how the ending maintainance budget would relate to the overall design processs as well.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2006, 09:14:49 PM »
Tom,

Well written. I considered adding a bit about my ancestry - according to Brauer family legend, we had some German engineers in my bloodlines.  My mom's side was English gentry, with some starving artists mixed in.

I always wonder if I got just the right dose of those qualities to be a gca, since both are necessary to be competent.  

I also think D Ross is a cut below the other Golden Age GCA because he was a frugal Scot.  Of course, so was Mackenzie, so maybe that has little to do with it.  Certainly Mac adopted the US trend for flashiness to a greater degree.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2006, 09:45:32 PM »
OK Jeff here goes:
Personality
....have had a test and where you have one I have three...gets confusing....test said was creative, mechasnical and high autonomy...I tink that means hardheaded..majored in chemistry but did not finish..then went to art school and studied industrial design(English Cabinetry)...was a cabinetmaker after school for a couple of years...
Mentors
Grew up in a small southern town with no private club but via jr tournaments got to play some very good private clubs in high school...
wanted to design golf courses when 16...
Went to a mentor program for Eagle Scouts in 1967 and was placed at a table with guys wanting to be regualr architects...Portman was our mentor and he sent me out to a RTJ project being built in ATL at the time....the man in charge told me to get into the business via turf industry...which I ignored for a few years...finally went to work in turf business and got to travel to all of the courses I desired plus call on architects...when I did my first course, Craig Metz went to work for me...he was son to Dick Metz, pro at shady Oaks and running mate of Ben Hogan(also played in Masters a few times finishing second if I recall correctly....Craig had shagged for Hogan and became a college AA at East Texas I believe...went on tour for a while and actually won at Riviera Open in Riveiera Beach Florida during 60's or 70's I think...BUT he  became addicted to golf architecture and did nothing but spend every waking hour photographing courses and making notes of the classics....he would take vacations to do nothing but photo the classics....I learned from him via trial and error...working in the dirt....also my wifes father was supt at Everglades and Indian Creek while his brother was head of RTJ construction company for a long time building such courses as Spyglass etc....listened to them talk for hours.....and then there were many old time supts that wpould just talk to you for hours on end about their place....
I also do detailed plans but rely heavily on my routing plan with anything else very likely to change....
Have always believed that golf is a part of the free enterprise system and will correct itself somehow...thus as you say it has to make sense..or either be carried by real estate...at least for awhile...
my beliefs have come from 30 years of talking to supts and anyone else at any course I come upon whether classic, new cheap or expensive...
Training
My training is on the job...as you say I would be in some design field but most of my training came from building the courses
I designed using people that had been around for a while...and...the years of calling on golf courses and creating a blackbook of contacts...
Artistic Influence
came from some artistic training with woodwork and just being rightbrained....and have always been a builder of something
Golf Background
had a partial golf scholarship to school for awhile but was not really focused if you know what I mean...but I did appreciate strategy and anything else I could learn re the game
Professional Background
Did my first course in 1985....had been in the turf business since 1980 at the time.....understand the hype of the business and the high cost of middle men and extra consultants to CYA...got my first jobs by justifying a budget that could work....Bob Cupp once told me(and he probably doesn't remember) that one has to be able to survive his bad projects...that is true...also feel there are many of us with good projects of which no one ever knows because those courses make it on their market and don't need to spend thousands on advertising lots and realestate...
there you have it.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2006, 10:15:11 PM »
Jeff, Tom and Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to explain how your backgrounds, apptitudes, interests and mentors have been instrumental in developing your design styles.  It's all very interesting.

Could you take a minute to tell us how you are addressing the greater distance the golf ball goes these days, particularly in the hands of the pros? (I don't see any increase in my distance, it's actually shrinking as I get a bit older!  :-\)

I'm thinking of corridor width, land requirement, bunker placement, construction costs, what else?

Thanks.......
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 10:15:53 PM by Bill_McBride »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2006, 07:02:42 AM »
Bill:  My personal opinion is that people are overreacting to the length the golf ball goes on TV.  I see clubs start to talk about new tees, and before you know it they've got a $2 million renovation project with a new irrigation system, new fairway bunkers, etc.  

The vast majority of members have no need for that, they are reacting with their gut to the idea that their course might become "too easy" and lose respect.

My designs have always concentrated on short game interest and that is the way to counteract the influence of length.

That said, I think all of us insist on wider development corridors today, and I do occasionally put a fairway bunker out there for someone who can carry it 300 yards from the back tee, just to keep them honest.  But I still put more of my bunkers at 190 and 220 and 250 yards.

TEPaul

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2006, 07:32:57 AM »
TomD:

I agree with you that some people may be overreacting to the distances they see on TV with the pros. And maybe some clubs have done rennovation projects that began with tee length addition but I see more clubs today trying to do restoration projects on the older courses for other reasons. Maybe I'm just looking at the wrong clubs though.  ;)

When it comes to tee length addition to some clubs it really isn't the pro tour that's inpiring it, it's simply that there is a contingent in most all clubs who do hit the ball a lot farther than just 10-12 years ago.

I've done a lot of officiating in GAP and Pa State golf association events and entire fields today hit the ball a whole lot farther than we did 10-12 years ago and that's just undeniable. The competitors playing in those events I officiate are from clubs all around here.

With tee length additions that's what most of these clubs are reacting to----not what they see Tiger Woods do on tour.

And as far as the course becoming easier or harder there is no question whatsoever that factor is far more in maintenance practices anyway. Clubs have simply got to learn that fact and how to use it effectively and sanely.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 07:35:18 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Young

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2006, 07:54:51 AM »
[quote author=TEPaul

When it comes to tee length addition to some clubs it really isn't the pro tour that's inpiring it, it's simply that there is a contingent in most all clubs who do hit the ball a lot farther than just 10-12 years ago.

Quote
TE,
Do these guys score any better?  I know at our club there are a few who THINK they hit it further than they do....still not many at 300 yds...most are 275 and think it is 300.  But the equipment gives them a new "lease on life" and I still don't see their handicaps going down....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2006, 08:18:44 AM »
Mike:

I doubt they do score much better than we used to but I don't really know about that. I guess I do see more plus handicaps these days than I used to but I doubt that's much of a factor on the motivation to lengthen courses.

The fact is almost all these guys who play in our "A" class events hit the ball a lot farther than we used to---and with everything---driver, 3 woods, irons. That really is undeniable. I'm not speculating about that----I do see it when I officiate "A" class events. I used to play tournament golf and I know where we all used to hit it----I know where Sigel, who could be about as long as it got in the past (he was longer than Norman and Ballesteros in the past in head to head Masters rounds) hit it and a whole lot of these guys today are hitting it past where Jay used to.

Maybe some of these guys on here think it's just on the Tour but it isn't. I doubt many on here officiate like I do so they wouldn't be able to see this as completely and comprehensively as I do. Ask JohnV about it----he officiates like I do except he does it even more.

The distance increase amongst "A" class amateurs is just undeniable.

How far do they really hit it?

That's a good question. There may be a lot of these "A" classs amateurs who think they hit it 300 when they hit it 275 but the fact is 10-12 years ago practically no one hit it or flew it 270-275 and now a whole lot of them are.

At Fox Chapel in the PA State Amateur in completely soaked conditions I watched this young man, Blaine Peffley who won the tournament, and is scary long, FLY the ball consistently a bit over 300 yards. That's flying it not just hitting it 300. I know because I walked off most of his drives which were all plugging from which he generally needed "embedded ball" relief.

And that John Hurley from Nebraska---he FLIES the ball in neutral conditions around 320-330 and sometimes more. 10-12 years ago no one was capable of that---not even close.

Today, the significant distance increase is not just on Tour as some say and some think, it's amongst almost all the "A" class amateurs today too and particularly some of the younger "A" class amateurs.

That is just undeniable and a lot of these clubs are reacting to that with tee length addition. They're reacting to what they're longest members are doing---not what Tiger Woods is doing.

The thing to really be aware of in this distance spike is not all the good players in the "A" class have been maximally "optimized" at this point and the fact is with good "A" class amateurs propoer "optimizing" is going to add some distance to their performance----that too has become fairly undeniable.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 08:38:41 AM by TEPaul »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 08:35:43 AM »
Tom MacWood,

It is tempting to copy in text from other writings but you probably don’t want the promotional information.  However, the promotional information is a true representation of my desired approach.  Having said this most on here have gotten some sense of my style based upon postings and courses they have played.  I find that in my best writings about my approach I generally don’t live up to them in the field, but it is a true expression of where I want to be.  So whether you menat to separate the two questions:

Do you have a style or aesthetic or design approach?
How would you describe the style of golf course you build?

I think there is an interesting disconnect between the style or aesthetic in my mind and the style or aesthetic of the course I build.  It may not be too different for someone to accuse me of being disingenuous when comparing the two but it is enough for me to often ponder the distinctions.  For the most part I would say I have been trying to leave well enough alone on the ground and to focus more on doing the very best routing plan possible within the parameters of the overall project.  I’ve been successful to some extent and have been pleased with the results in most instances.  However, there definitely has been a great degree of shaping of features be it a bunker or landform or a green that definitely is a departure from the surrounding terrain.  When I reflect back on those features I generally am pleased with the results as well, the manmade aspect of the features is not abhorrent to me like some of the manmade shaping I see on other courses.  However, the juxtaposition of the very low-to-the-ground design with the more abrupt manmade contours does make me think that the combination of the two could possibly be a style or an aesthetic or a design approach as you call it. And in some ways I find it to be a much more honest and true approach to design.  The manmade is obviously manmade there is no attempt to “cover the hand of man” and it is allowed to be what it is, and the areas that are left natural of course are a true expression of the natural conditions of the land.  

...what are its characteristics?

The characteristics change mostly in subtle ways from project to project.  Probably the starkest contrast is between my first project and my latest.  At Hawk Pointe there are more bunkers on each nine holes then on the entire course at Lederach.  Many of the bunkers were built in fill at Hawk Pointe; most of the bunkers at Lederach were cut in from ground level down.  I can think of only one bunker at Hawk Pointe that is not visible, and the bunker lines are flashed up and the curving.  At Lederach I am pretty certain all 32 bunkers are blind in the sense that I do not believe you will see a single line of sand from the tee looking at fairway bunkers or from the fairway looking at green bunkers.  You will notice some change in the terrain where the bunker was carved into the terrain, however on a couple of bunkers I have asked the club to post a small sign to alert cart drivers before they careen off the fairway into a deep hole.  At Lederach all of the slopes that were created when the bunkers were carved out are grass, not sand.  So to use the two courses as an illustration the characteristics are continually changing as a result of my own evolution which is influenced by a lot of things that accumulate in the head.  Other characteristics are width, features in the middle of the line of play, freedom in the movement of the greens to pitch in any direction that the natural ground wants it to despite what the angle of the shot is coming in, meaning there are an abundance of pin areas that do not slope from back to front.  The ball rolling to the green is always envisioned when looking at the shaping of the green surrounds from almost every conceivable angle.  

 What were your most significant influences that helped to develop your current style?

I’ll start by saying that I read everything Doak posts on here.  I search his name, I open his threads and I try to read it all.  What influence that has had is hard to say, but I definitely track his every word and I think about what he says.  For instance he mentioned that he liked greens with internal movement more than greens created by bringing in external movement.  I thought damn, that makes sense because when I was working a green at Morgan Hill I insisted on some external shaping to come into that particular green and it just never seemed right, it seemed like the right thing to do, but it did not turn out how I thought it should, I couldn’t pinpoint it and then I read his observation and it came together at that moment.  If there ever was a right way to conduct your life in pursuit of a career in golf course architecture he did the right way.

If I were marooned on an island I would want three books, Mackenzie’s “Spirit of St. Andrews”, Darwin’s “The Golf Courses of the British Isles”, and the Complete Works of Ralph Waldo Emerson.  I would also take Son Volts album “Trace”.  Even in a song you hear something that seems to speak in a way that makes you think it has application to design.  I forget the name of a song on Trace, but there is a line:

“Switching over to AM, looking for a truer sound”,

Now in this age of FM and XM is there some value in switching to something as arcane as AM to find truth, and isn’t that what we are really looking for, something true, not exhibitionism or flash, but something you feel is true.  One other non golf influence is Robert Frost, I think because his is about the only poetry I can make myself read and can somewhat understand.  But he wrote a poem that spoke against exhibitionism and emphasized allowing something to be what it is for its own sake.  Does that have any relevance to golf course architecture, I think so, what I am not entirely certain, but I believe it may become more relevant to me when engaged in actual act of creating on the next project.  I know it certainly has relevance to playing the game.  I have a hard time playing a course that I want to know more about from an architectural perspective and now I feel probably the reason is that golf should be played for its own sake, not some other reason like to study architecture.  It should be played because you love it, nothing more.  If I were given the opportunity to design courses on the very best properties anywhere in the world, no other burdens, but I can only play twice a year, or play the same old crappy course I grew up on in West Texas anytime and struggle to break even like I do today I would take the playing and the crappy course, and the struggles that come along with it.  My wife often asks me if I am concerned we don’t have much in the way of retirement and contributing to it is out of the question and I tell her I think I’ll be working to day I die, there is no retirement in our future, that doesn’t concern me, what ways more heavily on my mind is that I probably have about 25 years of decent golf left and I don’t like the limited amount of play I am getting in.  I am afraid that I will suddenly wake up and realize I can’t play anymore and all of those glorious feelings and moments I have had in my life that came from being on the course will never be experienced again, that is what scare the hell out of me.  But, having said that the closes thing to the tremendous pleasure that comes from playing is the camaraderie that comes from working with a group of guys building a course.  Fortunately I don’t have to worry about rankings and public perceptions being under the radar so the real reason for doing any course is the sheer pleasure that comes from those few months when the whole team comes together to create something.  That is the reason to do all of this above anything else.  There is a very special feeling that is derived when you get the right guys together to go make something.  
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 08:36:19 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2006, 08:57:32 AM »
KBM,

The song's called "Windfall"... 1st song on Son Volt's 1st album, "Trace".

"Switching it over to AM, searching for a truer sound
Can't recall the call letters, steel guitar and settle down
Catching an all-nite station somewhere in Louisiana
It sounds like 1963, but for now... it sounds like heaven"

- Jay Farrar, Son Volt
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 08:58:28 AM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2006, 09:12:33 AM »
Thanks Jeff.  I downloaded the album onto a disk so I don't have all the stuff that comes with a disk and therefore couldn't look up the name.

One other influence I was thinking about with regard to Tom's question is the surrounding countryside.  most of my projects of late have been concentrated in the northeast so I do a lot of driving and I look at the farms and other landscapes and that has been very influential because it confirms the beauty of the land, it reinforces the fact that a golf hole can lay on the natural ground and of course with some strategic considerations, the hole can be very worthy without changing things.  interestingly  though when I was traveling to Lederach I noticed a big landform that seemed to be made over time by a farmer, stockpiling mostly dirt and some debris and I noticed over time how beautiful that landform because as nature crept over it and took it as its possession since he had stopped distrubing it.  Totally manmade, no hiding it, yet it was a magnificent feature.  I even stopped and took pictures, it was captivating, but the beauty came as it began to take on the the same materials that clothed the ground around it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 09:13:43 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Mike_Young

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2006, 09:55:58 AM »
Mike:

I doubt they do score much better than we used to but I don't really know about that. I guess I do see more plus handicaps these days than I used to but I doubt that's much of a factor on the motivation to lengthen courses.

The fact is almost all these guys who play in our "A" class events hit the ball a lot farther than we used to---and with everything---driver, 3 woods, irons. That really is undeniable. I'm not speculating about that----I do see it when I officiate "A" class events. I used to play tournament golf and I know where we all used to hit it----I know where Sigel, who could be about as long as it got in the past (he was longer than Norman and Ballesteros in the past in head to head Masters rounds) hit it and a whole lot of these guys today are hitting it past where Jay used to.

Maybe some of these guys on here think it's just on the Tour but it isn't. I doubt many on here officiate like I do so they wouldn't be able to see this as completely and comprehensively as I do. Ask JohnV about it----he officiates like I do except he does it even more.

The distance increase amongst "A" class amateurs is just undeniable.

How far do they really hit it?

That's a good question. There may be a lot of these "A" classs amateurs who think they hit it 300 when they hit it 275 but the fact is 10-12 years ago practically no one hit it or flew it 270-275 and now a whole lot of them are.

At Fox Chapel in the PA State Amateur in completely soaked conditions I watched this young man, Blaine Peffley who won the tournament, and is scary long, FLY the ball consistently a bit over 300 yards. That's flying it not just hitting it 300. I know because I walked off most of his drives which were all plugging from which he generally needed "embedded ball" relief.

And that John Hurley from Nebraska---he FLIES the ball in neutral conditions around 320-330 and sometimes more. 10-12 years ago no one was capable of that---not even close.

Today, the significant distance increase is not just on Tour as some say and some think, it's amongst almost all the "A" class amateurs today too and particularly some of the younger "A" class amateurs.

That is just undeniable and a lot of these clubs are reacting to that with tee length addition. They're reacting to what they're longest members are doing---not what Tiger Woods is doing.

The thing to really be aware of in this distance spike is not all the good players in the "A" class have been maximally "optimized" at this point and the fact is with good "A" class amateurs propoer "optimizing" is going to add some distance to their performance----that too has become fairly undeniable.

I agree with what you say above...never said I didn't....I just don't think that handicaps have gone down that much....have you ever considered how much closer long hitters try to hit approaches on classic courses when they have a wedge in their hand???  where a shorter hitter may approach the center of a green...on back to front greens going for corner pins and shortsiding can bring about higher scores than mid green approaches..jsut a thought which I have seen with the college kids around here...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2006, 01:02:55 PM »
To restate my question to the architects:

Do you design courses differently today than you did 10 or 20 years ago because of the greater distances good players hit the ball today?

Do you feel you are using any techniques to throttle back these long hitters and thereby avoiding adding yardage and acres and project cost?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 01:03:13 PM by Bill_McBride »

Matt MacIver

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2006, 03:06:25 PM »

interestingly  though when I was traveling to Lederach I noticed a big landform that seemed to be made over time by a farmer, stockpiling mostly dirt and some debris and I noticed over time how beautiful that landform because as nature crept over it and took it as its possession since he had stopped distrubing it.  Totally manmade, no hiding it, yet it was a magnificent feature.  I even stopped and took pictures, it was captivating, but the beauty came as it began to take on the the same materials that clothed the ground around it.

This is exactly what I think about when I look at pictures of Victoria National...lovely.  

Mark Brown

Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2006, 09:33:27 PM »
I've only have one course under my belt but the links courses influenced me greatly. I like some quirkiness and bad bounces and unkempt areas, the firm turf and just the wild, natural nature of the courses -- bunkers in the middle of fairways, etc.

The second thing was the risk-reward style of the classic courses. Wide fairways to create angles and strategy as well as heroic shots -- how much will you cut off.

Third would be a lot of attention to the whole greensite as well as the putting surface. I love green sites like 14 at TOC. and creating all types of shots around the greens that require imagination. I hate the Tour attitude that you have to be able to see everything and no bad bounces or suprises -- Target golf.

Ideally I like fairwarys and greens that look like unkempt or rumpled beds. I love the jagged edges of C&Cs bunkers at Cuscowilla. Nature doesn't have straight lines and sharp edges.

I don't think any serious golfer can appreciate the game fully if they haven't played across the Pond.

And you've got to see Shinnecock and National, Augusta, Pinehurst, Pine Valley, Crystal Downs, Prairie Dunes, San Francisco.

It's got to be a passion. When I play I spend more time looking at the design of the course than the shots I hit. It  gets in your blood and the end product is a mixture of all your golfing experiences. It's not concious it just happens. You look at the landscape and the hole takes form. It's a bit of magic, undefineable.

I love one of Crenshaw's comments when questioned about a green. He said there's no law that says you have to be  hitting the ball at the hole to get near the hole.

Tom D. asked me why I wanted to get into design -- It's because I have to, I can't not do it. The process began 20 years ago and I can't settle for writing or marketing or development. I had to get out on a real site and see how well I could do, for the love and fun of it.

And the more I learn the more I have to learn. It's an inexhaustible, never-ending learning experience.

25 years ago I was in a cubicle doing financials at General
 Electric, and thank God I move to Hilton Head in 1981. What a training ground. I spent more time on sites with the architects than I did in my office at Links Magazine.

With all humility, I say WOW how blessed and fortunate I have been. And I'm sure most of those on this gca site feel the same way about golf, whether they've designed a course or not.

I'm gushing, so I'll stop.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 09:37:50 PM by Mark Brown »

Sean Walsh

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Re:A golf architect's personal style
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 01:29:10 AM »
Mark,

My take on the influence of Links courses is similar.  I grew up 3 hours in land and until 3 years ago had not played on anything approaching a links.  Then I played Port Fairy (at the very least it has some links holes.) in anticipation of a trip to the UK.  Growing up I played golf spasmodically and as with my white line fever on the Football Field I also suffered a terrible temper playing golf.  A bad bounce was unfair.  Hitting the one branch sticking out from a tree was a torment.  In short I would not have wanted to play much golf with me.  

Links golf (along with this site) has been some influence in changing this attitude.  Playing many of these courses and looking at the shots that have to be played you expect bad bounces.  With this expectation comes acceptance. So instead of cursing my bad luck I find myself rejoicing at the good.    

A much better way to play golf and much more enjoyable for any prospective partners.