[Patrick_Mucci]

JakaB's ocean thread led me to initiate this thread.

Isn't the clubhouse usually sited first and the golf course sited secondarily ?

Doesn't the location of the clubhouse dictate the available land upon which the golf course is routed and designed ?

How many golf courses were routed and designed, First, with the clubhouse as an afterthought ?

[Jerry Lemons]

Isn't the clubhouse usually sited first and the golf course sited secondarily ?

Doesn't the location of the clubhouse dictate the available land upon which the golf course is routed and designed ?

How many golf courses were routed and designed, First, with the clubhouse as an afterthought ?

Clubhouse location is ususally one of the first considerations, but it's location is seldom set in stone so much that the design of the best holes would be sacrificed.

[cary lichtenstein]

Should be the course

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:  To answer your question regarding my last ten courses:

The course was routed before the clubhouse was fixed at Pacific Dunes, The Rawls Course, Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, and Ballyneal.

The clubhouse was more or less fixed before we started at Atlantic City, Stonewall, St. Andrews Beach, Tumble Creek, and Sebonack (although we looked at two locations for Sebonack, and I suppose we might have looked at another if I´d really felt that was better).

So, in my own limited practice, it´s not that unusual for the client to be flexible in the clubhouse location.  And the results seem to be better when they are!

[Jim Thompson]

As I think back, our first consideration was where to put the Maint. Bldg. at least relative to which side or access point of property.  That mower mileage and transport time is the gift that keeps on giving.  Something to think about.

JT

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Weren't the main clubhouse, hotel and restaurant facilities already in existance at Bandon ?

With respect to Sebonack, what influenced your location for siting the maintainance facility as Jim Thompson mentions ?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tillinghast had strong views about this subject. In the main he prefered that the site for the clubhouse be agreed upon first so that it would more properly define how the course could/should be laid out. He also believed that the site for the clubhouse would be best chosen by himself because the golf course was more important than the clubhouse and should be on the best land for it. Note the following:

"In nine instances out of ten the committee already has a preconceived idea of the proper building site, and in as many cases that site is on a little hilltop at the very greatest elevation on the tract.  It is not the intent to question the wisdom of this choice except as it relates to the golf course itself.  When club houses are built on unusual elevations it makes it difficult to construct true holes to and from them.  Either there is a tendency to get away with a hole, which rather suggests driving off the roof, or the last hole presents blindness; and only too frequently there is also involved that great abomination--an arduous trudge uphill, which brings the players home blowing like porpoises in a state of exhaustion.  Personally, I incline to sites at lower levels.  I recall discussing the point with two of the leading landscape architects in America--A.D. Taylor of Cleveland and Charles W. Leavitt of New York, who both agreed with me.  Mr. Leavitt was developing a tract of some 400 acres for the Philadelphia Cricket Club.  It was my work to plan 36 holes there, but before any plans could be attempted it was vital that the club house site be fixed.  The committee strongly considered a hilltop, but Mr. Leavitt urged a much lower level.  It was his idea to build the entrance roads along the higher levels, so that really the first view of the club house might be had by looking down into a small, sheltered valley, very much after the old English manner.  He finally demonstrated that there was more breeze down there than on the hilltop.  To be sure, the scenic beauty of any site must be considered to some extent, but golf values are of even greater importance. "

[paul cowley]

.....don't forget the range.... which is rarely remote, excluded or an afterthought.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip Young,

Donald Ross also had some views on the subject

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Patrick:  To answer your question regarding my last ten courses:

The course was routed before the clubhouse was fixed at Pacific Dunes, The Rawls Course, Cape Kidnappers, Barnbougle Dunes, and Ballyneal.

The clubhouse was more or less fixed before we started at Atlantic City

Tom-

  Atlantic City?  More or less?  Hasn't the clubhouse been fixed there since before most of us were born?  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

JakaB's ocean thread led me to initiate this thread.

Isn't the clubhouse usually sited first and the golf course sited secondarily ?

Doesn't the location of the clubhouse dictate the available land upon which the golf course is routed and designed ?

How many golf courses were routed and designed, First, with the clubhouse as an afterthought ?

Pat;

  I thought about your initial question, then wanted to throw it back to you, regarding a course we both know very well: Garden City.  

  Given the club's and earlier, course's origins, that being connected to the town and the Garden City hotel, I wonder if the clubhouse came first, given its proximity to the hotel is basically the closest point on the club's property to the hotel, as well as to major roads (Stewart Ave/Cherry Valley Ave)    I'll hazard a guess that a few of the houses on Cherry Valley Ave (immediately right of the range) were there prior to the course, but I might be incorrect in this case.  

What do you think?

[paul cowley]

I think it is very hard not to at least conceptually have an idea where the clubhouse and the practice area are when conceiving the routing......unless the site is of an extreme nature that would dictate otherwise [I can't think of any].

Where the course starts and finishes and how one incorporates the basic functions of the club in the overall scheme is as important as the flow and the location of the holes.......the best designers make this relationship work without calling attention to it and without sacrificing the course design.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

Those homes came afterwards.

The clubhouse has always been in that end of the property near the intersection of those roads.

The shame is, that as those homes came up for sale over the years, that they weren't bought by the club.

It would have allowed the club to have an adequate range, compared to what exists now, and the safety and interuption factors would have been maximized and minimized respectively.

[Tim Bert]

Patrick,

I think that Doak was referring to the Pac Dunes clubhouse in his post.  I assume that the location of the primary facilities had little to do with the routing of his course.  There was likely some flexibility in where they could put the PD clubhouse, since everyone would already be taking a shuttle or short drive to get there anyway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Bert,

Do you feel that there was a realistic possibility that the clubhouse would be located anywhere other than on the eastern or southern boundary of the golf course ?

What's the likelihood that Mike Keiser would have entertained a clubhouse on the bluffs ?

My "wild guess" is that it was sited functionally, with the other existing and contemplated facilities as a factor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone think that the clubhouses at Friar's Head and Sebonack were going to be located on the southern borders of the respective properties ?

Does anyone find the location of Seminole's clubhouse to be a bit unusual or unique ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Unless the site is terribly restricted, or the access set in stone, the golf course architect should be influencing (strongly) the clubhouse site. And, this is best done by setting the best golf first and foremost. Even on re-builds we are often given the latitude to adjust the clubhouse site. At Olivas Links in Ventura we made a case to tear the ill-suited and located building down and put it in a better place for golf and all the clubhouse activities that go with an 80,000 per year municipal layout.

Paul's comment about ranges is spot-on...the range is typically the single largest component of any routing. While it should not thwart great golf, a poorly positioned range can set in motion many decisions that affcet golf for the worse.

Land planners who involve golf architects are key when the project involves a land planner. Most planners we have worked with are open, providing we are not brought in too late in the process. When we are brought in late, fertilizer can hit the fan!

[Tim Bert]

I think it is very likely that the clubhouse would have ended up somewhere on the boundaries you mention, but I think there was probably still enough flexibility for Doak to decide exactly where he wanted to start or finish the course - but we should probably let him confirm that.

I just didn't understand your question about the existence of the main facilities, which I think had very little to do with the PD routing.

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
I have mentioned this here before, but the story fits well here.

Settindown Creek, the very fine Bob Cupp design in Roswell, GA that has hosted number of major events (most recently this past summer's Women's Am) had the original routing changed in order to put the clubhouse in Fulton County rather than Cherokee County.  This was done in order to get the desired alcohol permits, and was done a couple of years after the course was opened.  (It had opened and functioned for a couple of years with a trailer as a temporary clubhouse.)

IMO, the original routing was far superior, and I can't imagine that Bob Cupp was pleased to have it changed, though I don't know that.  Oddly, though, the change made the range much more convenient than it had been.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Bert,

So you think that the location of the practice facility had no bearing on the location of the clubhouse ?

et. al.,

What's the opinion on the location of the clubhouse, the routing and range at Notre Dame ?

Did the old building that became part of the clubhouse dictate everything else ?

Would the clubhouse have been better located in the southwest or southeast corner of the property ?

Would that in turn have had a positive influence on the routing, range and general configuration of the entire facility ?

[Tim Bert]

I think I have no better information to speculate than Doak saying "The course was routed before the clubhouse was fixed at Pacific Dunes."

Sounds to me like he routed the course and then fixed the clubhouse.  

As I said, I'm sure the boundaries you mentioned before were the most likely to be named clubhouse site due to the rest of the resort layout, but given that they are shuttling everyone everywhere anyway, it probably didn't matter.  I didn't walk from the practice facility to any course during either of my visits there.

[Chris Kane]

Tony Cashmore locates the clubhouse first:
http://www.iseekgolf.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9450&st=20
see post #35

[A.G._Crockett]

Patrick,
I have mentioned this here before, but the story fits well here.

Settindown Creek, the very fine Bob Cupp design in Roswell, GA that has hosted number of major events (most recently this past summer's Women's Am) had the original routing changed in order to put the clubhouse in Fulton County rather than Cherokee County.  This was done in order to get the desired alcohol permits, and was done a couple of years after the course was opened.  (It had opened and functioned for a couple of years with a trailer as a temporary clubhouse.)

IMO, the original routing was far superior, and I can't imagine that Bob Cupp was pleased to have it changed, though I don't know that.  Oddly, though, the change made the range much more convenient than it had been.

A correction:  Obviously, the routing didn't change; the sequence of hole numbers was the change.  It's a lesser sequence than the original primarily because the current 18th is not an especially good finishing hole, IMO.

As to the original question by Patrick, there is a large empty area in one section of the course where the clubhouse was supposed to have been, so I would assume the answer is that the site was picked either before or at the same time of the routing.  In any case, it's hard to imagine how it could be otherwise.

[Steve Curry]

From Tillie's letter to BHCC, 1925.

"First, it was necessary to fix definitely the site for the clubhouse, for this is our dominant. In my opinion there is but one location for it – on the high plateau with an entrance from the public road, which bounds the property on the West."

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