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RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross and Colt
« on: January 22, 2006, 04:42:34 PM »
Just ran across an article in a 1913 American Golfer reporting on Ross and Colt collaborating on the design of Old Elm (Chicago). It says the ideas of the two experts have been combined and blue prints put into the members hands, but few changes were expected. Ross was supposed to return to supervise the construction. 400,340,180,500,420,480,170,400,300 / 3190  460,430,350,390,200,310,510,160,420 / 3230  total - 6420

Anybody familiar with this collaboration? Did they both work on any other courses.

Chicago guys- Is Old Elm still anything close to the 1913 design?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 04:43:08 PM by Ralph_Livingston »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2006, 07:56:21 PM »
Ralph:  I would wager that Old Elm is closer to what it was in 1913 than 98% of the other courses still in existence for all those years.

I did not realize that Ross and Colt had worked on it together.  I wonder how that worked?  Colt was here on his only extended trip to the USA, but I wonder if he and Ross were on property at the same time, or just submitted their separate plans and the club took ideas from each?

TEPaul

Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2006, 08:07:04 PM »
I thought Old Elm was the one a Ross crew ended up working on the course to Colt's plan.

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2006, 09:37:20 PM »
theres a nice anecdote in Brad Kleins fine book, Discovering
Donald Ross.As Tom Paul mentions , i think that a Ross
construction crew bulit Old Elm faithful to  Harry Colt's plans.

i think they briefly met, Colt later said : "Douglas Ross" is a nice man /good worker

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2006, 09:54:09 PM »
I should have done this to begin with.

American Golfer June 1913

In an effort to get the best advice obtainable the officials of the Old Elm Club, of Chicago, have consulted H. S. Colt, of Sunningdale, England, and Donald Ross, the Pinehurst professional.
These two experts, who are rated as two of the best in their line,recently spent a week at the grounds in company with President Edward F.  Garry and Mr. W. A. Alexander, of the grounds committee.
The ideas of the two experts have been combined and blue prints of the proposed course are now in the hands of the members. Any suggestions they have to make will be received,
but it is believed few changes will be found necessary.
The property acquired by the club As stated in a previous number of
The American Golfer, the Old Elm Club will be for men only. The distances of the holes as planned are as follows: Out—400, 340, 180, 500, 420, 480, 170, 400, 300—3,190 yards.
In—460, 430, 350, 390, 200, 310, 510, 160, 420—3,230 yards.
Grand total, 6,420 yards.
Mr. Reginald Beale, the leading English expert on grasses, has been
engaged to inspect several of the is located near Fort Sheridan, and
both Colt and Ross express themselves as agreeably surprised with the
possibilities of the new course. The ground is more rolling than that of
any of the north shore courses with the possible exception of that of the Lake Shore Club. Donald Ross, who left for the East, will return later to superintend the construction of the course. A great deal of the clearing work already has been done and a number of drains installed.
Chicago courses and also will confer with the Old Elm officials.

ralph
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2006, 10:17:46 PM »
Ralph, Mark Chalfant, as usual, gets it right. I have a detailed account of the collaboration on Old Elm, both Colt's design and that Ross built it. Colt was so impressed he hand wrote a note praising the work of "Douglas Ross."

There's no evidence, by the way, that Ross had an office in Chicago. He wa strying hard to get started in town and that was his first foray. The dating of Beverly as 1908 is mistaken, as far as I can document. Old Elm was Ross' first in the city.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 09:43:11 AM by Brad Klein »

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2006, 10:28:08 PM »
lots of work was being done at Old Elm when I played there in November....they were literally cutting down trees while I was playing, and many had been removed already..some were in really dumb spots..some holes had semi-circles of trees around the backs of the greens ???...they are trying to bring the slopes back into play on the golf course...

some very good holes out there...the third a par 3 with a falloff to a pond - almost got me!, ..9, a driveable but tough to do so par 4, 10 with a  cool bunker in the middle of the fairway, 11 has some great cross bunkers, 17 with a green with LOTS of tilt to it, 18 has a fallaway green etc....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2006, 10:33:38 PM »
Brad-
I'm assuming this is a "Ross" course that should be visited?


"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 09:12:17 AM »
Years ago, Old Elm looked like a museum piece. Glad to know it is still unchanged.  Killian and Nugent planned one new green (the tenth, I believe) but I don't know if it ever got built.  

At that time, we heard the story that they both were "locked" in a room over the clubhouse for a few days, and originally neither knew the other would be involved, but they came up with a routing against their collective will.  Don't know how much of it is legend and how much fact.

When K and N did a master plan for Shoreacres years ago, we also heard the story from then super Doug Radar that SA also invited Ross and Colt to co-design, and they both declined after the Old Elm experience, leading to Raynor designing the course.

If Ross and Colt were semi forced to work together (long trip home once there, etc.) I would bet that they did develop some respect for each other while locked in the clubhouse and not allowed to leave the grounds!  The did have lots of common ground between  them.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2006, 09:44:49 AM »
Jeff, nice try re: the forced collaboration, but it's Colt's routing all the way.

T_MacWood

Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2006, 10:45:39 AM »
Although Ross made a point of listing Old Elm on his portfolio (which is interesting in itself), he clearly noted his role was strictly construction.

Another course that appears to be some kind of collaboration was Indian Hill in Winnetka. It was reported Colt and HH Barker were working together there, and Colt listed the course on his portfolio at one point, but ulitmately I think a Ross-designed course was built.

Its a little unclear what actually happened there.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 12:14:35 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2006, 12:11:02 PM »
Brad:

From your book Colt said this about Old Elm and Ross;

"Douglas Ross, whom I met for the first time & with whom I am most favorably impressed, made notes of everything & if given a free hand will I am sure carry out the work in a natural and excellent manner,"

Above that you say;

'Colt's hand-printed notes from April 27, 1913 provide a brief introduction to hole-by-hole sketches of a course that in routing and bunkering has remained essentially intact to this day.'

Did you look carefully at Colt's hole by hole sketches and compare them to the way the golf course was built? I ask this for a couple of reasons.

First, when some look at hole by hole sketches of an architect they don't necessarily look that carefully to see if the golf course was built to those sketches. Certainly PVGC is that way with Colt hole-by-hole sketches.

Second, if the routing of any course was merely a "stick" routing, few seem to realize that given a particular "stick" routing of a golf course it's possible to "design" the architectural features of that stick routing in many different ways to look like many different golf courses.

Did Colt's hole-by-hole sketches of Old Elm include any green detail, for instance? Green design and detail is definitely not an insignificant part of the architecture of a golf course. Colt's hole-by-hole drawings of PVGC did not include any green design or green detail at all (no real size, shape, slope, contour etc other than a brief text remark on about three greens.

Is it possible at Old Elm that Colt did a routing and the actual "design" of that routing fell to Ross and his construction crew?

After-all, in Colt's quoted remark above he did say "...& if given a free hand..."

What do you suppose that means? If Ross had a comprehensive and detailed Colt routing AND hole-by-hole "design" plan to follow what would he need a 'free hand' for in construction? If he had that kind of detailed "design" plan from Colt all Ross and his crew would need to do is just follow it and build the specific Colt design plan.

Was the bunkering placed and built to Colt's plan and were the greens built to Colt's design plan, if he even left a design plan for the greens?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 12:37:58 PM by TEPaul »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2006, 01:27:29 PM »
TEP,

as I recall from my visit there, Ross was essentially the construction foreman to implement Colt's plans. The drawings are Colts, and in the handwritten note I basically think he's advising the club to leave Ross alone and not micro-manage him. By the way, it's not a stick routing but clearly hole-by-hole with Colt bunkering all the way, in Colt's handwriting.

I saw a very clear B&W aerial of the course from the early 1930s and much of the Colt features were in place. It's very close to the Colt plan and also conforms to the "Map of the Links Old Elm Club" published in "Golfers Magazine," May 1913.

Note, I also have a three-page memo from a club official, E.C. Carry," unfortunately undated, documenting hole-by-hole "Memorandum Regarding Visit to Old Elm Club with Donald Ross."

It is a series of very minor hole-by-hole tweaks to bunker depth, a little width to another bunker, tinkering with the edges of some putting surfaces. Real superficial stuff. There are only three trees designated for removal (two on right side of 10th fairway, one at 18th fairway) and two new bunkers, one for the right of the 7th fairway and one on right side of 11th green.

That's not much tinkering, even for a follow-up. It was Ross' first work in the area and I think he was trying to make an impression by following orders. A lot of work followed the Old Elm assignment, by the way.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2006, 01:31:15 PM by Brad Klein »

TEPaul

Re:Ross and Colt
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2006, 01:36:50 PM »
"I saw a very clear B&W aerial of the course from the early 1930s and much of the Colt features were in place. It's very close to the Colt plan and also conforms to the "Map of the Links Old Elm Club" published in "Golfers Magazine," May"

Thanks, that kind of thing is all that's needed to prove the course was designed by Colt and built to his plan. The same cannot be said about PVGC. As Jim Finegan accurately mentioned in his book, 'there're more differences than similarities.'