[Bill Gayne]

Over the New Years holiday I was looking at drawings that were done for Sea Island and the C&A offices listed were London, New York, Detroit, and Paris. Why four offices and why Detroit and Paris?

Thanks

[mark chalfant]

Bill:   Alison did a lot  of work around Detroit and northern  Ohio.   some  very good courses like Plum Hollow and Kirtland
still exist. Detroit was  a flourishing, somewhat affluent city in the twenties, possibly a good locale to meet well heeled clients.

[wsmorrison]

Alison proposed a partnership with William Flynn in the early 1920s.  Flynn obviously turned him down.  His engineering and construction firm, Toomey and Flynn built Burning Tree for Alison later on in the decade.  I guess Alison wasn't too upset.

[T_MacWood]

New York and London would be obvious locations. I'm not sure about Detroit, Mark is right about the number of projects in that area, I'd include Ontario too.

Alison's first projects in America were revising Lochmoor in Detroit, a couple of projects in Canada and Kirtland near Cleveland.

And for their work on the Continent, Paris would be a logical headquarters...they had gentleman running that office by the name of Martin.

[SPDB]

didn't they also build CC of Detroit, some of which still remains, best efforts of Cornish and RTJ notwithstanding?

[Tyler Kearns]

New York and London would be obvious locations. I'm not sure about Detroit, Mark is right about the number of projects in that area, I'd include Ontario too.

Tom,

Wasn't the auto industry in much better shape during the roaring 1920's then it is these days? During the golden age, golf was an affluent game, and in would seem to follow that architects could follow the money, because that is where their services would be most required.

TK

[Tony_Muldoon]

This is a serious question.  Has anyone here ever heard of an architect called

Harry A. Colt?


A local course has just published a Scorefinder with the name of the Architect as above.  It's not clear but apparently this dates from 1938.  I've written to them asking for more information and before I go making a fool of myself anyone ever heard of him?  To the best of my knkowledge this is the first time it's been identified as a 'Colt' course.

[Sean_A]

SPBD (Sean?)

Much of the C&A greens are still intact at CC of D.  The course is quite good without being special.  Much of CC of D's character was due to massive elms.  I think nearly all of these elms have succumbed to disease.  Though when I was last there several dozen were still scattered about.

What are the other C&A courses around Detroit?  I have never heard of any other than Lochmoor, Plum Hollow and Orchard Lake which I think have all been significantly been altered.

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

Much of CC of D's character was due to massive elms.

Sean A

Given that these elms were probably much less massive (if even existant) when C&A designed the course, isn't this damning with faint praise?  Is the course not good enough to stand out on its own, without the trees?

Rich G (son of Ali)

[T_MacWood]

Tony
I've never heard of Harry A. Colt...probably a misprint.

Colt designed the original CC of Detroit which was on or near Lake St. Claire. It hosted the 1915 US Am. Alison built a new course in 1927 at a new site.

RTJ completely redesigned the course prior to the US Am in the 50's. I believe RTJ II remodelled it again more recently. I'm certain Rich applauded both moves.

In the region Alison designed/redsigned CC of Detroit, Plum Hollow, York Downs, St. Georges, Kirtland, Columbus, Lochmoor, Westwood, Orchard Lake, Lost Nation and Colony.

Colony is feature Daniel Wexler's fine book Lost Links.

[Ian Andrew]

Tom MacWood,

Do you know how Willie Park Jr. ended up in Toronto (had an office here on Weston Road) ?

Was Colt at all influential in him coming over ?

Alison did a bunch of consulting, York Downs and The Park Club in this area. Was it all on visits, or did he stay.

[T_MacWood]

Ian
I'm not sure how Willie decided on Toronto. One of his first courses in Canada (if not his first) was Toronto Hunt. I suspect Carters had an office in Toronto...he was closely associated with them. the funny thing is it appears he did more work around Montreal. His main office was NY, also shared with Carters. I don't believe Colt had anything to do with Willie coming over.

I'm not sure if Alison stayed there or not.

[ForkaB]

RTJ completely redesigned the course prior to the US Am in the 50's. I believe RTJ II remodelled it again more recently. I'm certain Rich applauded both moves.

Sorry for the late reply, Tom, but an earlier version got lost in cyberspace.  So, TA DA!

"It's hard to applaud when you are trying to master the art of "one hand clapping," as was the case for me in the 1950's....

So, was it a good course or not?

[T_MacWood]

Yes, it was good course. RTJ remodeled Oakland Hills around that time as well...it was a good course too. Both jobs were in preperation of USGA championships.

[Sean_A]

Rich

Be truthful now.  You would be the father of Ali G, not the son.

I think CC of Detroit is plenty good with far fewer trees.  Who knows, it may be closer in intent today to how C&A designed it because of the loss of trees.  

Tommy Mac

You are right in that originally CC of Detroit was closer to the lake and offered yachting as an activity.  That land was sold off when new land was acquired.  

RTJ largely left greens in tact at both CC of Detroit and Oakland Hills.  I am confident that Ross and C&A would recognize an awful lot of these courses.

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

 I am confident that Ross and C&A would recognize an awful lot of these courses.

The routing....maybe. You don't think they would think they would notice the complete rebunkering of their respective courses?

[Sean_A]

 I am confident that Ross and C&A would recognize an awful lot of these courses.

Tommy Mac

Sure these guys would notice the bunkering differences, but they may be impressed that so much survived!  Remember, neither chap was adverse to the idea making changes.  

Ciao

Sean

The routing....maybe. You don't think they would think they would notice the complete rebunkering of their respective courses?

[T_MacWood]

I'm sure they'd be thrilled to see that their courses overhauled by another architect.

[Bill Gayne]

Thanks to all for the replies. I've enjoyed reading them.

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