[A_Clay_Man]

Around less developed areas of the country, the politicians are very keen on their city parks. Ya see, the feds will payback money to these municaplities, for conserving open spaces. I wonder if anyone is watching for blatant abuses of these grants? Because if ever there was region with plenty of open space, it's this one. Yet the city continues to apply for multiple grants bulding more and more parks.  Sounds great, until you realize that very few, if anyone uses them.

[Jay Carstens]

Brackinridge Park Golf Course, San Antonio (Tillinghast 1915).

[Craig Disher]

Rock Creek GC in Washington DC. The course is so run down that it's hard for anyone to believe that improvement is possible. However, the site is gorgeous, the routing is solid, and there is a real shortage of quality close-in public gcs. The concessionaires have always kept the fees extremely low and consequently little money gets put back into the course. If they were directed by the Park Service to upgrade, rather than be allowed to operate it at their own discretion, it could be both a money maker and golfing gem. Would anyone NOT play if the rates were raised from $19 to $29 for 18 holes?

[Dan King]

Speaking of munis, I have a story from Geoff about potential munis the Tours could use. I'm looking for pictures of
Rancho Park in L.A.
Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia
North Fulton in Atlanta
Ponkapaug
George Wright Memorial
Brackenridge Park in San Antonio
Cedar Crest in Dallas
Memorial Park in Texas
Tennison Park in Texas
Eastmoreland in Portland
Bethpage Black
Pelham and Split Rock courses at Pelham Park
Eisenhower Park in New York
Mark Twain Municipal in Elmira
Leatherstocking in Cooperstown
Timber Point on Long Island
Montauk Point on Long Island
Manikiki Park in Cleveland
Rackham Park in Detroit
Griffith Park in L.A.
Brookside #1 in Pasadena
 
While there will be no money for any pictures supplied, there will be the always valuable photo credit which can then be stuck on a resume and sent off to Links Magazine or Golf Digest or whatever.

If you have any good pics of any of these courses, please send me email at dking@danking.org.

Dan King

Who do I get, but the Dali Lama himself.  The flowing robes, the grace... stunning.  So, we tee off on the first hole and the Lama  hits one, a big hitter the Lama, down a three thousand foot cliff at  the base of this glacier.  Do you know what the Lama says?... "Gunga, la gunga".  "Gunga la gunga". So we finish eighteen and he's gonna stiff me. So I say, "Lama....Lama!  How about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know" And he says, "Oh, there will be no money, but on your deathbed you will receive total consciousness".  So I got that going for me, which is nice.
 --Carl

[Mike Benham]

I can only really comment on 2 courses on the list but with Huckaby's tirade on Harding, offset by Tepper's support of the job at Harding, what is the real goal of the muni being rebuilt?

Is the intent to return it to its original design, routing, maintenance meld, build USGA greens?

Or is the goal to use the property to fix the design or routing flaws into a different course?

Huckaby's view is that they could have made Harding better by using more GCA instead of a cosmetic "new and improved?

Look at Brookside in Pasadena, a good solid test of golf but for the most part, the design is bland, flat fairways, push-up greens, bunker left, bunker right.  So the "rebuilding" would return the course to ... what?  Harding Park South ...

Maybe a better question would be if you had the virgin land, what type of course could be built on the Harding, or Brookside property.

[THuckaby2]

Aye, great questions all, laddie.

Just understand my tirade about Harding is moot, and my argument mainly wistful.  I understand the reality.  It was either gonna be TPC-Harding or it stays in disrepair or worsens.  Only the curmudgeonliest of curmudgeons would complain.  So perhaps I have a bit of that in me after all.

In general though put me solidly in the camp of making fun courses out of munis as opposed to test for pros.  If that means returning an original design, so be it.  If it means scrapping and starting over, so be that also.  I just don't get how gearing a course toward one week a year (or three years in the case of Harding) is a worthwhile goal.

BTW, I rather like Brookside as it is.  Assuming it hasn't fallen into disrepair - I haven't been their in several years - I'd say leave that one alone.

TH

[Mike Benham]

BTW, I rather like Brookside as it is.  Assuming it hasn't fallen into disrepair - I haven't been their[/i] in several years - I'd say leave that one alone.

TH

I will assume your their is there but not here ...

Anyway, I to like Brookside as it is ... so what would rebuilding accomplish (other than improved conditions)?

But say Doak or Hanse or Stranz (or a number of archies) had the land at Sandpiper or Torrey Pines, do you think they could come up with something different?  And would that different be better?

[A_Clay_Man]

Brookside would be good, but only if they park cars, for the event, in the rose bowl.

 East Moreland has just about enough tree encroachment to make it a prefferred TOUR stop.

[Craig_Rokke]

"Funding sources for municipal golf courses are nearly non-existent in large Northeastern cities. It seems to me that the politicians have forgotton that the pride of the City is diplayed in its parks."

I would generally agree with that statement. There's a local muni, Jeffersonville, who had difficulty gaining any municipal
backing for their course overhaul, until some documents attributing the course to Donald Ross were unearthed.
The project quickly received support, and the result was a very nice R. Pritchard restoration/renovation.

If Merion gets an Open, it might be good timing for the folks
at Cobbs Creek to petition the city for funds to restore
one of the few Wilson courses in existence.

[les_claytor]

I saw this post last night, but was too tired to reply.

I love the topic of restoring, and or renovating munis not so much for tournament play, but for public enjoyment.  The real issue is that we have hundreds of facilities all over the country with deteriating infrastructure and years of insuffient maintenance.  Investing money to rehab these priceless courses is an investment in the future of the game.

In that vein, a lists of classic muni's that need some love ( not necessarily TOUR events)

Highland Park, Cleveland  - my home muni, good Ross like course ( Sandy Alves ).  Improved greenskeeping in the last 10 years has brought the pulse back ( crew of 7 for 36 holes!).  Thousands of feet of clay tile installed by WPA labor need to be rehabilitated.   36 holes w/ lots of room, very straight forward Blue and sporting Red.  Tom Weiskopf tolf me a funny story of him playing the Blue with Jim Brown as a kid.  Took him a couple of holes to figure out who he was.

Other Cleveland Munis in good shape: Manakiki & Sleepy Hollow both county courses are classic Ross and Thompson gems.  Sleepy could use a tree thinning.  

Potential Cleveland gems: Lost Nation - presumably a Colt course is very flat but awesome and extremely subtle (Tom wouldn't like it!  .

Other gems around the US:

Charleston Muni: great low country, short course.  Was daily fee for $13 a few years ago ( I once went fro 54 holes walking)


Dallas:  Cedar Crest, Tillinghast, was renovated by D A Weibring last year, along w/ Tennison a few years back.  Old Cedar Crest was a pure 6400 yd course.

DC:  Rock Creek Park is the toughest 4900 yd course I know.  I played it last year and I found it to be in acceptable condition, what do you want for $26?  Too many trees makes growing grass tough in a hard zone to grow grass anyway.  I counted seven different turfs: Rye, blue, fescue, bermuda, zoysia, bent and poa.  
Langston Park was renovated in the last 5 years, near RFK.  Another course, can't remember the name, out by the Potomac is a very nice setting.

Minneapolis, has perhaps the best planned muni system in the country with I believe 6 courses integrated into a greenbelt system around the city.  Hiawatha Park come to mind. Beautiful WPA clubhouses should be restored.

San Francisco: Linclon Park, Sharp Park ( owned by the city), Golden Gate Park, Gleneagles ( privately managed, meet the new group very nice and has vision to improve, keep it pure )

LA:  Griffith Park, 36 holes, Thomas, awesome.  Both Griffith and Harding have vistas from the first tee accoss multiple holes that are fabulous.  If you can get on, it's still very good, and the potential is there.  Just needs polishing.  Rancho Park: looks pure, but never could get on!  Busiest course in US.  Charlie Sifford won there.

Better post before I lose it.

[David_Tepper]

Geoff Shackelford's thoughts on the subject:

www.golfobserver.com/features/geoff/munis_101105.html

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