[Matt_Ward]

I have had the pleasure in playing Castle Pines the home layout for The International a few times over the years and have to wonder how the course achieves top 100 status. Don't get me wrong -- I like the layout -- it offers plenty of variety on a number of holes but for me the totality of what you get isn't really cutting edge stuff -- especially with the likes of such new layouts like Bear Dance in nearby Larkspur and clearly the Greg Norman layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, to name just two.

The International offers a unique format that has made for some fun and exciting play over the years but designer Jack Nicklaus has put forward an array of solid layouts that go a good bit further than what you see with Castle Pines today.

No doubt the course is usually impeccably groomed and the greens can and often runout like a pool table in smoothness. There's been much added to the Colorado landscape and while Castle Pines still is fun to play I have to say it's time in the top 100 spotlight should be geared more to yesterday than in 2005 and beyond.

I wonder how others who have played the course would estimate its standing now -- given what has come forward in The Centennial State and from what Nicklaus himself has since designed?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I've never thought Castle Pines was one of Jack's best courses, or one of the best courses in the country ... I thought it was on there more as a token representative for Colorado.  But, it doesn't have to be replaced with a different token, does it?  It could just as easily be replaced with Sutton Bay, or Black Mesa, or Rolling Green or Eastward Ho or The Bridge, although the last now seems unlikely.

"The cutting edge" is not necessarily indicative of the best work in the country.

[TEPaul]

There's no question in my mind whatsoever that Castle Pines definitely deserves to be in the top 1,837 courses in the nation. But the burning question is whether it's in the top 47 in the state of Colorado.

[TEPaul]

"TEP, have you ever hit a golf ball in CO?  

Uh, no, I don't seem to recall that I ever have. But I did hear a rumor last week that Hank Kuehne carried a 2 iron approach shot clear over Colorado. Does that count?

[Jonathan Cummings]

 

TP - I spilt a gut!

JC

[TEPaul]

"And it was a 3-iron, not a 2, Tommy"

That figures. Will this USGA ever recognize distance has gotten a bit goofy? Maybe they're waiting until no one can see the ball land anymore before they consider rolling distance back.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

When I use the word "cutting edge" I am referring to those new courses that have advaced the design process in terms of better pieces of land, maximized routings that don't skip a beat and shot values that are very diverse from start to finish.

Castle Pines for me is a superb looking woman -- it cuts a fine figure and your eyes will never move far from the view it casts. However, Castle Pines is more of appearance than depth.

Only in the last several years has Team Nicklaus been able to incorporate the finer points of design among the best of what Golden Bear has produced.

It's not so much what's bad with Castle Pines -- it's about how much better other courses -- both by Jack and others -- have become.

Like Cary -- I see both Castle Pines & Cherry Hills as former top 100 layouts -- if anything the likes of Greg Norman's Red Sky Ranch would be a much better substitute than either is now.

Tom -- I don't what you mean by a "different token." The names of some of the newer courses that have been mentioned -- such as Black Mesa and Norman's Red Sky Ranch -- are solid and not merely bystanders or the "B" team by any means. The two aforementioned stand on their own merits.

[Matt_Ward]

I have to say this about Castle Pines -- one of the really superb Nicklaus holes that often gets lost in the discussion about the Colorado layout is the rugged downhill 10th hole. It's always among the leading holes for difficulty and the demands on the tee shot, approach and green are always front and center.

As an FYI -- the hole plays 480 yards with a fronting pond that lies in await for the shot that is not crisply struck.

[Jim Franklin]

The milkshakes alone should qualify it in the top 100 .

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