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Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2005, 10:47:42 AM »
Matt,

I've played nowhere near as many TF courses as you have.  I've played a total of 13, all of them east of the Mississippi.

WW Pine Barrens and Galloway had been my favorites.  Trump National is clearly better than Galloway in my opinion, and about level with World Woods.  

Mike
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 10:48:17 AM by Mike Cirba »

Matt_Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2005, 10:53:33 AM »
Mike:

Of the 13 TF courses you have played -- what specific aspect (you'll need to list the first among equals) of the new Trump course differs from the many pro forma designs (The Ridge at Back Brook) leaps to mind that often accompanies his work?

One other question -- did you have any expectations when coming to Trump's Garden State layout?

Thanks ...

Mat Ward

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2005, 10:57:26 AM »
Yes Mike Cirrrrrrrrrrrrrrba-- tell us what wacki tobacci you are inhaling..

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2005, 11:01:27 AM »
Mike:

Of the 13 TF courses you have played -- what specific aspect (you'll need to list the first among equals) of the new Trump course differs from the many pro forma designs (The Ridge at Back Brook) leaps to mind that often accompanies his work?

One other question -- did you have any expectations when coming to Trump's Garden State layout?

Thanks ...

Matt,

Question 1 - The greensites, the green surrounds, and the internals of the greens themselves are VASTLY more detailed and interesting than the lesser Fazio courses I've played.  THAT is the priimary differentiator.  Also, in this case, there is much more a tie in to approach shot and driving strategy that is required by the greens themselves.  Similar to Augusta, most holes offer a lot of fairway room to hang yourself with.  ALso, classic strategy is employed;  challenging a hazard from the tee often results in an advantageous positioning.  That isn't always the case, but the end result is that the course comes of as much more balanced and THOUGHTFUL than other Fazio courses I've played.  Also, there is little there that is unnecessary frill for purely framing and eye-candy purposes.

Question 2 - Go back and read my first post!  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2005, 03:06:56 PM »
I've done a bit of digging to find out what was original on the Trump site and what was not.  

What I learned is that the ponds on 10 & 16 have been there forever.  A google map of Bedminster, NJ (pre construction) makes this clear.

It also turns out that the ponds on 4 & 11 were low-lying wetland areas that were converted to water hazards.  Other wetlands were created on the property, but out of play, to keep the regulators happy.  

The pond that serves both 6 & 7 was created from scratch.  Given that it is used diagonally on both holes, I think it works really well, and they are two of my favorite holes on the course (the short par four 6th plays to a 14,000 sq. ft. green that is a wild rollercoaster falling off in a domed fashion on three sides into the hazard, making for some incredibly dicey hole locations.  

One other long, narrow wetland affected play on the course, and that is the one that runs through #2, #8, and #17.

It is probably less than 20 yards across, and on #2 one has to carry it on the drive of the short par four (no big deal from the member's tees), on the par five #8, one can lay up short of it on the second (leaving about 150 yards uphill to the green), or try and carry it (usually if you're doing that you're having a go at the green), and on #17, it lays in front of the green on the long par three (233 from the tips).  There is fairway short of the wetland to allow for a safe play.  From the middle tees, the hole plays considerably shorter.

Also, one of the most interesting things from viewing the pre-construction aerial is the fact that it almost appears that #16 was there all along.  The breaks in the trees suggest the dogleg left routing.  

If anyone is interested in seeing the aerial, I'll forward you the web address (which I saved on my work computer but don't have handy at the moment).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2005, 03:12:39 PM by Mike Cirba »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2005, 09:20:37 AM »
Bill,

Next time, could you please put some date stamps on the pics so I know when they were taken.   ::)

Also, if you used Photobucket.com's free photo-hosting service instead of Mystic Color Labs, you wouldn't be limited to MCL's tiny picture restriction (and wouldn't be required to buy pics, either).

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2005, 09:32:32 AM »


Mr. Redanman

What is the green fee at Trump National?  
Did you pay or were you playing on "the donald"


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2005, 09:54:39 AM »
This board is just about past its usefulness.

My comments were just a "back at ya" for your comments on
the BGC thread.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2005, 10:13:33 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2005, 10:03:19 AM »


We have a new multi million dollar club with a very small membership(if any), in the process of selling additional six figure memberships.  All run by an egomaniac.

When Mr. Slapper is critical of the course(with a very comprhensive analysis) which he has played numerous times he is attacked for his motives.  What of the motives of others?  

Redanman
What would necessitate pulling a post of yours with an apology to the management for the comments about the course.  

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2005, 10:23:27 AM »
Bill,

You took down the pictures because of what Hammy said?  A guy whose posts consist of two main topics:  complaining about access and kissing Mucci's ass?

Please put them back, for your own pride.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2005, 10:43:52 AM »


Mr. Burroughs

I play 95% of my golf at my home courses, two of which are reviewed very competantly on this site.  When I start making unsolicited calls across the country, to people I do not know, to make arrangements to play courses that I know nary a member. I will be sure post photos and to review the courses for all.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2005, 11:24:00 AM »
When I start making unsolicited calls across the country, to people I do not know, to make arrangements to play courses that I know nary a member. I will be sure post photos and to review the courses for all.

If you don't like the system that has been in place for a long time, that's fine, but making back-handed comments on here accomplishes nothing, except encourages more to ignore you (like I should have).

Why haven't you said anything about the GCA course profiles?  I'd bet at least half of those were done that way.   What about The Confidential Guide?  You think he knew anyone at 80+% of the courses he reviewed?

If this process didn't happen, then a lot of what is shared (good architecture) and shown on this site would never be able to happen.

You would not do well in the rest of the world where most of the great golf is open to all through reasonable means.

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2005, 10:22:56 PM »
How did I miss this thread. I have been to TN. Its ok. The only awful hole is 16, which certainly feels forced and really doesn't work well at any point from tee to green. There are a number of very solid holes, but at the end of the day, it still feels like you have been there before, and didn't really need desperately to come back. A Doak 5, would be my guess.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2005, 06:14:41 AM »
How did I miss this thread. I have been to TN. Its ok. The only awful hole is 16, which certainly feels forced and really doesn't work well at any point from tee to green. There are a number of very solid holes, but at the end of the day, it still feels like you have been there before, and didn't really need desperately to come back. A Doak 5, would be my guess.

Alex,

A 5?  Hmmm...

Could you tell us more how you feel 16 is forced?

I you feel that you've "been there before", could you cite some courses that you feel TN reminded you of?

How would you compare it against other Tom Fazio courses you've seen?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 06:16:27 AM by Mike Cirba »

Alex_Wyatt

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2005, 10:31:11 AM »
Fair questions, Mike.

For me, whether I am at Shadow or Wynn or Hudson or TN, there is a feeling of "Well, this hole doesn't make any terribly unreasonable demands, it's pretty, but it doesn't really make me think very much or take notice". And they all kind of remind me of each other.

The back nine of Easthampton reminds me a bit of Hidden Creek and that doesn't bother me (so perhaps I am a hypocrite), but there are features in each place that really make me take notice and at the end of the day, the echo of the style doesn't drown out those features.

As for 16, can you really say that if you hadn't been hemmed in a bit by other aspects of your routing that you would have designed a hole with that carry, those hazards,  the hard turn and the very unforgiving green? It felt like a plug, but given the 22 routings and TF's penchant for moving dirt, I don't see how he couldn't have found something else.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2005, 02:24:03 PM »
Fair questions, Mike.

For me, whether I am at Shadow or Wynn or Hudson or TN, there is a feeling of "Well, this hole doesn't make any terribly unreasonable demands, it's pretty, but it doesn't really make me think very much or take notice". And they all kind of remind me of each other.

The back nine of Easthampton reminds me a bit of Hidden Creek and that doesn't bother me (so perhaps I am a hypocrite), but there are features in each place that really make me take notice and at the end of the day, the echo of the style doesn't drown out those features.

As for 16, can you really say that if you hadn't been hemmed in a bit by other aspects of your routing that you would have designed a hole with that carry, those hazards,  the hard turn and the very unforgiving green? It felt like a plug, but given the 22 routings and TF's penchant for moving dirt, I don't see how he couldn't have found something else.

Alex,

That's an interesting perspective.  You see, I didn't find Trump National to be much like any Tom Fazio course I'd previously played, including those in NJ which include Galloway National, Pine Hill, and Ridge At Back Brook, much less Hartefeld National in PA.

It certainly isn't like World Wood Pine Barrens, either, or some other courses I've played of his along the east coast.  

For instance, there is almost nothing there simply for show, or framing.  Virtually every bunker serves a solid purpose and the amount of restraint in terms of landmoving and bunkering I thought was admirable...remarkable really, particularly in contrast to his usual style.  While not quite minimalist, it exhibited much of the same philosophy.

In addition, I found that many holes offered strategy from the tee, or in placing the second shot.  Drives that successfully challenged bunkers or bunker complexes on holes 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15, and 18 were suitable rewarded with superior positioning for the approach.  

The approach shots were exacting and in some cases, exhilerating.  I could sit out with a bucket of balls trying to play different shots into #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 13, 14!!!, 16!!!.  Those holes are not only challenging, but they were also FUN!

Also, the green surrounds were generally fantastic and the greens themselves have wonderful internal contours from bold sweeping slopes, to perplexing folds and ridges, to subtle angular borrows, to fall-offs.  

They exhibit a degree of sophistication that is rare generally, and particularly special compared to other of his work I've seen.

It's interesting you mention #16, but a pre-construction aerial almost shows the hole lying naturally as it exists today, with natural breaks in the trees forming the dogleg left.  The carry itself is not particularly daunting in terms of distance (except for perhaps the tournament tees that even the pro hasn't played), and it must drop 70 feet downhill.  

The second shot, to that boomerang shelf of a green, is not easy, and it reminds me of 15 at Kingsley Club because it breaks all the rules.  I can see where a low-handicap player would think the hole somehow unfair, but you know what...

Like 15 at Kingsley Club, that's the reason its unique.  Also, if one can imagine Tom Fazio building some holes (the 14th green also comes to mind) that are being deemed as unfair that should tell you just exactly how good this course is.  ;D

Mix all that in with a really beautiful property in rolling horse-country and I think that Trump National is anything but standard Tom Fazio fare.  I believe that it's a superb effort, notable as much for what he didn't do as for what he did.  
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 02:48:02 PM by Mike Cirba »

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2005, 03:50:37 PM »


Scott Burroughs says "if you don't like the system that's been in place for a long time, that's fine but making backhanded comments accomplishes nothing"

First of all my comments were pretty straightforward, they were certainly not backhanded.  Also, please alert others to what you refer to as a "system"?  I would like to hear the Scott Burroughs system for golf course access.

I would also not compare your search for access with Tom Doak in his journey for knowledge nor with Mr. Morrisett and his love of golf course architecture. That is comical.

I come to this board for the educational aspects provided by such people as Pat Mucci, and TEPaul, and Tommy Naccaratto and the wonderful people in the business who choose to participate.  


Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2005, 04:24:52 PM »
Hamilton,

Do you have anything specific to say about Trump National?

If you get a chance to play there, I think you might like it.  I'd also enjoy hearing your feedback, critical or laudatory.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2005, 04:47:21 PM »
The "system" is far-reaching in terms of the type of people who can get on courses that don't know a soul there.  Tour pros, club pros, superintendents & assistants, those in the golf business otherwise (retail, sales, media, design, etc.) have long been able to get on courses without knowing someone there.  Not everyone in all cases, of course, but those who approach it in a responsible way.

Other ways that sometimes work are letters or phone calls (either from yourself or from your club pro) to clubs stating serious interest in golf architecture (the ROW method).

The more recent phenomenon is the magazine course rater, which is the one that apparently disgusts you and some others here.  Since GD came out with there first ranking lists in the late 60's, there have been magazine raters.  In order for these raters to rate private clubs that they don't know someone at, they must "cold call" them (or write a letter), if the club allows raters to play.  This system has been in place for 30+ years, whether you like it or not, and this has also been discussed (and disgust) ad nauseam.

You have made it clear that you do not like people (including, and likely especially, raters) to play courses where they do not know someone, although apparently it's OK for the Tour pros, club pros, superintendents & assistants, those in the golf business otherwise (retail, sales, media, design, etc.) who have been doing it for a much longer time.  Or is it?

If you were not a member at several prominent clubs with a circle of friends at other prominent clubs and were "just a muni player", would you still be so snobbish about others who want to play these hallowed clubs?  I think not.  You're obviously an old-schooler who likes the good-old-boy system of connections.  Have vs. have-nots.  An elitist caste system.  Whatever you want to call it.

Quote
I would also not compare your search for access with Tom Doak in his journey for knowledge nor with Mr. Morrisett and his love of golf course architecture. That is comical.

Why is it comical?   Certainly it's hard to compare almost ANYONE to these two guys, but you don't know me or my intentions one bit.  I know Mr. Morrissett, have played golf with him, and speak with him on the phone (at length) a few times a year.  We seem to have a lot in common, talk about architecture at length, and he seems to trust me by asking for advice on the Message Board and what the current "pulse" is on the board.  And by the way, he's a magazine rater, and I can guarantee you he's played a bunch of nice courses without knowing someone there.  But it's OK for him, right?  Because he's Ran?  And not OK for me?  Because I didn't found this web site?

I was seeking out good architecture long before I ever found GCA.com (I found it on a search for architect bios), but I have learned a great deal more since finding it.  In order to know more about great architecture, reading about it on a web page will only go so far, it's best to see it and play it to really appreciate it.

The funny part of this is me validating myself to you, whose primary mission here seems to be to compliment Mucci and to provide sarcastic access comments.

If you're so interested in learning, why don't you seek to play more courses to see a wider variety of architecture?  Let me guess, your home courses are too good to play anywhere else?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 05:11:13 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Trump National - Tom Fazio does the classics
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2005, 09:08:40 PM »
jeezus, Hammy...

Give Scott a freaking break.  

Over the years he's contributed a hell of a lot more to this site than I've ever seen from you.  Every day for years he took his own time and efforts and created the "Aerial of the Day", which many of us enjoyed.

He's always posting industry news, pictures, and asking questions that keep the discussion going.

I recall a day he drove something like 700 miles to see a few courses in the same day on a trip to the northeast, ending at Yale, if memory serves.  He's also been personally gracious to me, going so far as to contact a club in a town where he grew up when he knew I was going to be nearby.  

I don't see how you can even dare question his passion or desire to learn and see architecture.  

Can you tell me what you've contributed here?  You won't even tell us who you are.

NOW...kindly stop hijacking this thread.

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