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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Role reversal...
« on: July 23, 2005, 06:30:19 PM »
While I have been posting far less and playing far more in the last few weeks, I have made an effort to keep up with threads.  

This last bit of fingerpointing where some people whom I really respect, feeling that there are too many one-minded and idealog sort of people who post what they seem to feel is "mullah like edicts" whereby they say they are posting less because they think they are being shouted down, has really bothered me.  First of all, I really believe in my heart that folks expressing their strongly held principals about this so called and elusive meaning of "minimalism" aren't such a bad lot because they aren't attaching their beliefs in a core philosophy of how courses should be designed for any nefarious reasons other than wanting to see an ethic or culture of sensible and affordable golf where the game can still find roots to grow and entertain all levels of players.  No one is holding beliefs (no matter what end of the spectrum their sensitivities lie) to somehow subvert the tradition of the game. We all want it to be as great as it has been and to have a great future.

Jim Wagner now turns the tables in an intelligent way to call what we have been identifying in a consensus sort of understanding as "minimalism"; as actually more aptly experessed as "maximumism"; getting the maximum out of a property via the most efficient, economical, or least disturbing of nature methodology.  In a way, we are getting down to a discussion of construction techniques, beyond merely design schools.

Perhaps we all need some sort of sensitivity training, so that we can begin to appreciate what the other side of some of these arguments are believing are their core values in GCA.

So, I propose that some of us try to post in a role reversal mode and do a critique or series of comments about a course from the opposite genre that you subscribe to.  

In my case, I do see myself as a minimalist (newly redefined as a maximumilist by Wagner) whereby my core value is to do the least amount of costly earthworks, engineering, and feature design that still offers a maximum amount of real golf strategy playability, and maintainability in a complimentary to the natural environment sort of style.  I don't like to see wasted money spent on eyecandy that does not add to the actual golf game and only excites the ambiance or prestige of a highly ornate property whereby the cost to play such becomes excessive and exclusionary to those that seek to enjoy the game itself.  I feel like I am the posterboy or an advocate of places like Rustic Canyon or, Wild Horse.

As a role reversal, I will try to conjure up a post on a course or two in the following days that is the opposite of what I really believe golf design should be at its core, and try to sing the praises of that other end of golf design.  I'll try to be fair and not sarcastic and make a case for how good that particular course might be.  The only hitch is I have by natural and economic strata selection steered away from what I have felt were bombastic expensive extravaganzas.  But, I have been to a few, so I'll try.

I won't do it tonight, but watch this space in the coming days.  I encourage others to do the same.  Let's try to get into the other sides heads.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2005, 12:30:21 AM »
RJ,

The thing is that many folks at the upper end of the scale want the best course possible without tight money limitations.  Founders of small-membership, highly exclusive clubs do not have the mentality of counting pennies, and seek what they consider the best that a relatively short life has to offer.  Often, they desire to build close to home and they are willing to spend money to create what they want in a less than ideal site than to go 50 - 100 miles out to better land for golf.

We see on gca.com repeated jabbing at high budget courses, often bringing into question the principals' egos.  Personally, I think that a little class envy is at play here.

We should ask ourselves if we had the money and love golf as many of us do, would we not want to play or belong to clubs which offer the best courses?  As a rule, aren't most of the best courses, particularly those from the modern era, on the more expensive side of the continium?

If you like cars, and have ample funds, do you drive a Buick or a Kia?  Hopefully you don't look down on the builders and buyers of luxury and high-end performance vehicles.  Can a person have a healthy ego, belong to Dallas National, and drive a $200,000 car?

You know, I've never heard anyone complain that Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon are questionable venues because they were too cheap to build.  Shadow Creek, a course which I consider to be an engineering marvel as well as a wonderful place to play, gets knocked around all the time.  Without consideration of costs or fees, if I was given the choice of playing either Shadow Creek or Rustic Canyon for the rest of my life, it would take me a New York second (not minute) to decide.  I suspect that I would be in a vast majority, perhaps 95%+.  Yet for every one fault attributed to RC, ten or more are lobbed at SC on this site.  Why?    
 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2005, 12:50:39 AM »
RJ;

Great post!

Frankly, I think this whole "minimalist site" stuff is pure, 100%, grade A, top sirloin BS.

It's almost like politics.  Rather than deal in grey areas, where most of real life resides, it is much more intellectually easy (not to mention lazy) to just pin some type of obtuse label on the other side, whether conservative or liberal.

So it goes with "minimalism".  In some Orwellian twist, is this to now become the dirty word on this site?

One of the great things about golf, without specifically being a card-carrying member of the "great big world" society (the GCA version of the Trilateral Commission ;D) is that such amazing variety exists.   I've played (and still do) courses that are strictly low-budget affairs for the average person and courses where millions of dollars are sunk into the place monthly to provide something approaching horticultural heaven on this earth and both have their place.

Yes, I do agree with you that trends in the game, as well as perceptions need to be managed and realistic, particularly in tough economic times, and if given my druthers, I'd have every town in the US have a public course like Wild Horse, or TOC, or Rustic Canyon, and it would be a game of and for the people.  Still, looking at the reality of what presently exists versus our populist idealistic dream of what it could be, I think we would also be wise to consider that we should also understand what is appealing and valuable in the latter.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2005, 09:45:14 AM »
Lou, would you at least concede that at the roots of the game, it's core, there is no class envy?  Wasn't it a game that could be enjoyed on commons for all citizens?  I'm talking about the game that originated on the 'old sod' and was apparently intriguing and compelling enough to be exported to the new world and around the world.  While all sorts of people from many classes of people took up the game that evolved, it was a natural process that those that could afford more lavish golf grounds sought to construct imitations of the original golf grounds.  They sought to find a new medium called golf course architecture to tinker and explore new styles of golf grounds (moving from the natural links literally provided by mother nature) to specifically designed and constructed courses.  Some moved into parkland areas.  Many went through odd phases of penal, geometric,  and what we now might call silly design presentations in an evolving quest for people who came to love the game to have a course they could play in their village, city, country, etc.  Thus Golf Course Architecture became a legitimate profession and artform.

During that evolutionary process, technology, human ingenuity, and a realization that a price needed to be paid in order to build (as opposed to find in nature) improved golfing courses.  

Lou, you focus on a class envy thing way too much.  It is only natural that wealth, and ability to spend more, will seek to design and construct what would be the perception of the day as the "finest" facilities.  Just like that more wealthy person might opt to spend more on the Rolls Royce rather than the utilitarian standard motor car.  That is a natural economic reality that those with more wealth will seek to obtain goods and services that are "perceived" as better.  I'm not out to deride that natural economic selection process nor foment class envy nor revolution as you keep alluding to me.

When it comes to private golf courses and clubs, we have seen an evolution from the first efforts by wealthy folks to merely construct a private golfing grounds like the Platt family hiring Bendelow to provide an "emulation" of what the "perception" of golfing grounds were that "all people" were enjoying on the old sod, to a rapid transition to more elaborate private clubs spending more and more to provide more extravagant designs and clubhouses etc.   So, we saw the Pinehurst efforts, the Chicago golf clubs, the NGLAs and the Merions and Pine Valleys.  Each effort was an evolutionary step to create what was "perceived" as better and better golfing grounds derived from the traditinal and historic-authentic game through the rise in knowledge of GCA and construction methods.  Most all that was done by private money.  A good thing to be sure.

My goal is not to spread class envy as you too often ascribe to my motives Lou, when I try to raise a discussion of things like the merits of minimalism and the inevitable evolution to extravagant design, construction and maintenance via the investment of greater sums of money.   My goal is to find if there is a question of concern and deminishing returns to the public golfer, where expectations have risen from private ever increasing expensive trends in design, construction, and maintenance.  Do those evolved "expectations" now exceed the spirit of the traditional and authentic game that came to us from the old sod and its people?  Does this notion of "minimalism" or efforts to maximise what is provided in nature with the least costly methods of design, construction, and maintenance begin to have more merit in terms of fostering a continuance of the game for everyone - than do considerations arising from increased public notions and expectations of what great golf must be via comparison to what are now very expensive design features (eyecandy having nothing to do with the game).  Lemon/melon scented golf towels served up by on-course wait staff being among those extravaganzas of new expectations that have exceeded the core principles of the game, as one small example beyond the more obvious waterfalls).

Lou, this isn't about class envy.  This isn't about private weathy peoples choices to develop and join exclusive eyecandy rich clubs.  That will exist on its own merits and in its own course of economic evolution and reality.  This is about the "expectations" that come to the public golfer's perceptions from extravagant efforts to create that new perception of what golf is.  Those expectations leave the realm of private country clubs and emerge in the phenomenon of CCFAD that are marketted to the public.  Has the public lost its collective memory of the old game and upon those conditions and criteria that game was so revered and exported in the first place?  Can the game grow in a popular manor with an ever increasing public perception that new courses need extravagant features, extravagant conditions, and extraneous services and extras?  Or will the new expectations of excesses reach a point of collapse under too much cost to provide those expectations?

My obvious bias is to embrace the sort of minimalism that I think you know what I mean Lou, as having more merit and being an important movement at this time to reign back the costs so that the game can grow based on its original charm and criteria for the traditional sport.  

But, my challenge is to try and meet the concerns of certain posters here that feel that some of us have shouted down the other end of the golf development spectrum by creating a role reversal exercise to try and write up and discuss the merits of the other side of the spectrum, that being the CCFAD or other public new or remodelled courses that have embraced the heightened expectations of more is better. A fellow like me needs to make a serious effort to understand the merits of the extravagant development. So, when I get time, I'm going to try and address the question by evaluating someplace like the Irish Course at Whistling Straits, or that Fazio course at Lake Oconee (that was open to the public as a CCFAD wasn't it Lou?)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2005, 10:01:17 AM »

We see on gca.com repeated jabbing at high budget courses, often bringing into question the principals' egos.  Personally, I think that a little class envy is at play here.

 

Lou, As one who firmly believes, (and have stated here) that Ego is at the root of many a design flaw, I honestly don't believe class envy has anything to do with it.

Quote
You know, I've never heard anyone complain that Wild Horse and Rustic Canyon are questionable venues because they were too cheap to build.  Shadow Creek, a course which I consider to be an engineering marvel as well as a wonderful place to play, gets knocked around all the time.  Without consideration of costs or fees, if I was given the choice of playing either Shadow Creek or Rustic Canyon for the rest of my life, it would take me a New York second (not minute) to decide.  I suspect that I would be in a vast majority, perhaps 95%+.  Yet for every one fault attributed to RC, ten or more are lobbed at SC on this site.  Why?    

Lou, I read this to mean you would choose the vegas venue? That is all well and good that you llike the place, but honestly, day in day out, for the rest of your life? I know my life would never get bored at RC, while hitting soft fades all day at SC would get repetitive.


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2005, 04:21:53 PM »
Dick,

I agree with your opening sentences.  Golf in Scotland had the type of roots you describe, which apparently are still strong.  However, for the most part, that was not true in America and most other foreign countries.

I would argue that in Scotland and Ireland, golf is becoming less of a game of the common folk, if for no other reason that the prices have increased so much based on what tourists are willing to bear.  Yes, many courses have a different price list for locals, but access is more curtailed (like at TOC and Carnoustie).

The opposite has happen in many parts of the U.S. where the number of daily fee courses have grown tremendously.  And while the CCFAD category accounted for much of it, the unfortunate financial problems that they've encountered due to overbuilding and excess spending has been beneficial for the consumer in terms of more interesting designs, declining prices, and relatively easy access.

Never have I alluded that you think the way you do because of class envy.  And where did you get the notion that I thought of you as a fermentor of revolution?

My comments are in general, trying to bring to light why perhaps there is so much criticism here of high budget projects and the architcts who serve this market.  Objectively, I can't find sound reasons why Rustic Canyon should be resoundly praised while Shadow Creek, a much better course in my opinion, is the recipient of so much criticism and only benign praise.

In terms of evaluating architecture, should money be a consideration at all?  How much did Lido and Yale cost to build?  Were there members of Chicago GC derisively saying, "yeah, maybe it is a pretty good course, but look how it cost 10 times more than our little gem to build it"?  Perhaps they did, or maybe is what prompted them to bring Raynor back to redo the course which remains widely unchanged and highly thought of today.

There are a number of things that could help the growth of golf, none which have to do with the development of ultra-expensive private courses.  I agree with Cirba and Morrissett when both stated (at different times ) that every small city or town would benefit greatly by having a Wild Horse or Pinion Hills.  NYC and CA could probably use by having several Bethpages and Rustic Canyons.

Interestingly, one of the reasons why the higher-end courses keep popping up is that the cost of land is so high.  In turn, this is largely due to the onerous regulatory and permitting barriers to entry that developers have to overcome before they can begin to break ground.  The math does not work very well when you are paying a bunch for the land and not much for improvements.  Typically, the higher alternative use for the land is not a municipal course, but maybe a shopping center, office building, apartments, single-family housing, or perhaps a CCFAD or private course to spark interest in the surrounding real estate.

As a proponent of inexpensive, populist golf, perhaps you should be calling for the local, state, and federal governments to make available public land for that use.  I would not have a big problem with JVs with the private sector to build good affordable courses operated under certain restrictions in consideration for the special pricing on the land.

As to what courses I would rather play, I am sorry Dick, but at this stage of my life, I can't get excited about playing a little mom and pop with pushed up greens and artificial turf for teeing areas.

BTW, the Fazio course we played is a resort course, open to members (property owners) and the hotel guests.  They probably do let a few others on the course when they're not busy, but I am sure that they pay a premium.      

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Role reversal...
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2005, 04:35:43 PM »
Adam,

Why should I care if Fazio got paid a couple of million to build the $30MM Dallas National?  If I like the course, why is the cost important to me?  It seems that this would be more the concern of the founder and developer in terms of his ability to sell memberships and achieve his financial objectives.  Despite all the dire warnings and behind the back snickering, Dallas National has been wildly successful.

If it is not class envy, then what is it?  Could class envy have anything to do with our attribution of ego to those who spend heavily on golf?  Adam, we all have an ego.  The survival of our species depends on it.  The question should be one of its health and the results of the actions it (the ego) influences.

As a person who truly appreciates and practices diversity, I would not want to limit myself to one single course for the rest of my life.  Perhaps there is one exception, CPC.

But if I had to choose one of the two to play for the rest of my life, I would most certainly go with Shadow Creek over Rustic Canyon.  Your characterization of hitting soft fades all day at SC is refuted immediately on the first hole where I had to hit a run-up shot to a middle-front-left pin position.  In fact, being in the rough and trees as much as I was forced me to hit a variety of shots.   I found that SC had a very MacKenzian quality- that it provided for the opportunity to recover from an indifferent shot by hitting a exceptionally good shot on the next one.  

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