[Patrick_Mucci]

If you were given the authority and the budget to work on an old or classic golf course, in an effort to undo many of the changes that were forced upon the golf course over the years, which course do you think could produce the biggest bang for the buck.

Which course would be transformed the most by your efforts ?

Describe why you chose this golf course and what you would do to enhance its inherent value.

ANGC is excluded from the exercise.

[John Foley]

Oak Hill East.

Before I heard all the noise about Fazio's rework, from a distance it didn't look all that out of place. Once I played it, I was amazed how much Fazio's holes stuck out from Ross's holes. I'm not saying they we're all bad, IMHO the par 3 6th is very good, though the par 4 5th w/ a pond is not a keeper.

I don't have David Wexler's book nearby to show the exact changes they should undertake. Fixing #5 would be a great change.

[Geoffrey Childs]

LIDO

It would keep our friend George Bahto very busy and very happy.

Yale-

Put back the third green, 2nd green, 6th green, 16th green and swamp to the left, all the bunkers.

SFGC- put back the three lost holes

[TEPaul]

"If you were given the authority and the budget to work on an old or classic golf course, in an effort to undo many of the changes that were forced upon the golf course over the years, which course do you think could produce the biggest bang for the buck.
Which course would be transformed the most by your efforts?"

Patrick:

I realize you may find it incredible that I'm saying this since you've mentioned a number of times I do nothing but defend everything this club does with their course. That is simply not the case and everything I've ever said about it and what I feel they could do to really make one enormous statement and create a real effect with the course has ALWAYS been consistent.

It's PVGC!

I think you've always totally confused my advocacy for tree clearing down there with my advocacy that Crump intended the holes on the course to basically be visually segregated from one another.

The fact is PVGC can do both and have both because that is precisely the way the course was designed.

If you look back at any old threads on PVGC and this issue of trees there I have always said if the club cleared ALL the trees on the golf course OUT OF MR CRUMP'S OLD BUNKERING AND THEIR VISUAL LINES the impact would be far beyond stunning!!

And if they did that---just use that one single prescription the holes on the golf course would still be visually segregated from one another.

Why is that inherently true? It's pretty simple----Crump or Colt and Crump routed that golf course incredibly wide with very few exceptions. That fact alone allows the course's holes to show really stunning views of bunkering and sand on the sides of the holes while still maintaining that hole to hole visual segregation.

All the club really needs to do is to fully understand what the old clearing lines on the old aerials of that golf course mean. Some were for potential parts of holes he never used and those areas can be in trees but other areas he intended to keep open for some fascinating reasons that the club should understand better today.

If they fully understood that and did it that golf course would totally floor those who know it best and even those who don't!

In concept that fix is remarkably simple even if the extent of the job would be quite large because there are so many trees inside and on top of Mr Crump's old architecture.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

My original choice would be to restore (what else?) the original Bethpage Blue course, circa 1936, when, along with The Red Course, it hosted the U.S. Public Links championship.

This would entail eliminating most of the first nines of both the current Blue and Yellow courses.  The majority of the current second nine of the Yellow is of the original Blue, and still has many bunkers, features, and angles characteristic of Tillinghast, for example the "Reef" hole, which has undergone significant work over the past year and now sports a diagonal hazard.  

A development plan I have for BSP shows yardages for the Blue Course to be very similar to that of The Red.  

This in effect would have provided a strict test (Black) two strong tests (Red, Blue) and course that all may enjoy, regardless of skill (Green).

The plan I have also shows much more in the way of bunkering on the Black Course on certain holes (#1, 13) for example.  I am undecided if today's Black provides a better test.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,

As long as you're taking out trees at PVGC, how about restoring the messy/unkempt/untamed waste bunkers vs. the recently cleaned-out/tamed versions....


Patrick,

A few courses from me:

Hollywood - me likey bunkers

Timber Point - pictures made it appear pretty spectacular and I think all of the original land is still available.

Yale - the current course is so much fun, the original would be magnificent.  Take the cart paths out, too.

The Ross Trio Altered for the Worse for Major Tournaments:  Oakland Hills, Inverness, Oak Hill - How often is a mix of styles better than the original (especially an original by someone who routed as well as Ross)?  Also, who around today has seen the original Oakland Hills?  Aronimink not included since it's been restored to a certain, if not complete, extent.

Geoffrey suggested Lido, but I don't know if your intended dream allowed for a restoration of Lido, since the land it sat on is all a housing now.  Does the dream allow for 'unlimited' funds to buy out all of the current dwellers and relocate them to build the original course?  If so, I'm all for it....

I'll leave Riviera for Tommy....

[A_Clay_Man]

Pebble Beach, per Ran's article. Whatever it cost, it would be just a fraction of the value of the land.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
As long as you're taking out trees at PVGC, how about restoring the messy/unkempt/untamed waste bunkers vs. the recently cleaned-out/tamed versions...."

Scott:

That goes without saying. That is more in the way of maintenance though. I'd just sell the sand-pros.  

[Andy Silis]

Inverness!!!  Blow up the Fazio holes and get rid of Hills imprint and restore to original, and you'll have one of the best most intimate routings ever on a smallish property.

[John Kirk]

Would Eugene (OR) Country Club look better as Chandler Egan's (hope that's right) original design, rather than Robert Trent Jones' rework in 1967, where he reversed the course, placing greens where tees used to be, and vice versa?

Although Eugene may be the best classic old course in the Pacific Northwest, with beautiful specimen trees, narrow fairways, and fast, smooth greens, it is not among my favorites.  I spray the ball, and for me it is too claustrophobic.  The greens are scary fast, too.  Despite that, a day at Eugene is a beautiful day of golf.

This is a fine topic, Patrick.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fellows,

Let me bifurcate the topic.

Some of the answers dealt with a situation whereby an architect/s made changes to some of the holes on the golf course.  Some of the answers dealt with situations where the membership made changes to the golf course.

And those were the ones I was thinking about when I created this topic.

So, let's divide the thread into two parts.

Earlier this year I played a golf course designed by a famous "golden age" guy, where the membership had narrowed the fairways to widths unmanageable by their membership.  Tree were also planted, and the rough allowed to grow.

Rencently I played another golf course designed by another famous "golden age" guy and the membership had done the same thing.

In the first example, it's usually more difficult to undo changes wrought upon the golf course by an architect than it is to undo changes wrought upon the golf course by various committees and boards over the years.

The golf course I recently played has the inherent potential to be a wonderful golf course again.  All that's needed is to return to the plan as originally conceived by the original architect without all of the amendments made by committees and boards over the years.

Some of the holes are downright spectacular, but, the heavy fingerprints of generations of misguided committees and boards are all over the golf course, detracting from what could be a great golfing experience.

Let's discuss both types of courses and what could reasonably be done to vastly improve them.

[wsmorrison]

Pat, you're asking me if a dream can come true and then you bifurcate the topic.  Well, I'll stick to my dream even if it doesn't quite fit the criteria laid out here after all, it is a dream.

I would like to resurrect the Boca Raton South course.  Now the land where it once was is way too expensive so even in my dreams I couldn't imagine returning it to its original location.  But a sandy based soil on flat to slightly rolling ground with wind is all that's required.  The original course had 10 feet of elevation change so it doesn't have to be an exact fit.

Maybe it will happen someday.  A boy can dream....

[Phil_the_Author]

Timber Point. Especially since I located the actual set of original blueprints from the field that the work was done from.
It is in the rare print section of the New York State Archives in Albany and I had the pleasure to personally examine them. They have been misfiled under documents that are supposed to be part of miscellaneous paperwork from the Long Island State Park Commission.

It has pencil & ink notes for every hole, yet the layout and bunkering of this course would have made it one of the truly great golf courses even today if it could have remained as built.

With the right people and money this is a realistic dream project.

[Mike McGuire]

Patrick -

I have been dreaming of a such renovation at my home course -West Bend CC in Wisconsin.

Langford/Moreau . (Think Lawsonia in a slightly smaller footprint.) Although the entire 18 holes were designed only 9 were built in 1930. It is a classic you can never tire of. Glacial undualtion on the entire property. Elevation change from top of Kame to lowest kettle = 150 + ft . Pre-settlement mesic woods.

When it came time to do the back in 1960 they ignored the Langford design and hired David Gill. Mr. Gill not only ignored the original design he routed it backwards!!  Flat greens, boring bunkers....you can picture it.

The renovation is twofold.

Phase 1.  Restore the original nine. Rebuild a few leveled grass bunkers and one flattened green.Take the rest of the greens out to the edge of the pads, put the fairways back were they were. Tree removal etc...Same as everywhere.

Phase 2.  Build the  back nine as originally designed. Because the present routing is backward the new greens/tees could be built without stopping play. Of course at some point you would have to close holes to do fairways etc..

IMHO this could be one of the coolest projects of all time. To restore a course by building  a golden age lost nine.

By the way i have the original drawings. 1" = 60'  w/ 1ft topo lines.

Thanks for giving me a chance to DREAM aloud with such an educated audience.

comments encourged.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Philip Young,

With all of the positive attention that Bethpage is getting, perhaps this is the ideal to broach the subject to the powers that be.

Mike McQuire,

How does the rest of the membership feel about your concept ?

Is there any possibility of generating a grass roots movement ?

Has any architect been consulted and have any cost estimates been provided ?

Wayne Morrisson,

Unfortunately, the old IBM property is being developed, but, that might have been an ideal site for your dream.

The only other large flat sites I can think of is the Boca Raton airport, the Municipal golf course and the Hotel golf course.

The Municipal golf course just might be the ideal site.
I would consider preparing to make them an offer, especially for work that would be done from April 15th to November 15th, which is a relatively down time for them.

[Mike McGuire]

Mike McGuire,

How does the rest of the membership feel about your concept ?

Is there any possibility of generating a grass roots movement ?

Has any architect been consulted and have any cost estimates been provided ?

Patrick -
I have not (until now  ) gone public with this DREAM. As a possible green chairman in the near future I dont want throw around wild ideas .

Given the recent 250K spent on a new 18th hole..(reception mixed, original architecure ignored), and  the current economics / memebership mix, the  odds of such a project are off the board. Although in celebrating our 75th anniversary this year I have managed to use the occasion to educate a few on the history of our course. We even had 70 some golfers play hickory on the actual 75th ann. day.....it was a smashing success !

We were lucky enough to have Prichard, Devries and Forse visit our course this year. This idea was not discussed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Under what pretext were Prichard, Devries and Forse invited to your club ?

That sounds like the begining of a formal long range plan to me.  

$ 250,000 for one hole ?
That sounds exhorbitant.
What possible improvement on one hole was worth spending 1/4 of a million dollars on ?

[Don Herdrich]

This is easy...........Cedar Crest Park Golf Course in Dallas.......they played a PGA there a long time ago.....it is a Tillinghast original and could be a great 6,500 yard course.......it is in the hood....I have heard there was a renovation done, but do not know to what extent!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sunningdale - chop all the trees down and return it to an open heath, ditto Liphook.  But what about all the birds and animals which have made their homes in the woods?  I'll need to employ - in addition to a host of sawyers - some clever ecologists who can identify which trees must be left and which patches of scrub retained in order to provide corridors of protection for song birds and small mammals, both in serious decline in the UK.

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