News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brent Hutto

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2005, 11:22:23 AM »
A couple weeks agao John Vander Borght posted a link to an enormous USGA eligibility document with all sort of interpretations and what-ifs concerning PubLinks criteria. According to their rules, the answer is no. The courses she plays in Hawaii do not disqualify her for the PubLinks nor does any of the other much bandied about "woulda coulda shoulda" violations. Some people don't agree with the way eligibility works but it's the USGA's tournament and they write the rules and interpret them.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2005, 11:24:27 AM »
Scott,

The USGA sometimes reacts very slowly. Figuring this out 25 years ago,  makes the year 2007 about the right time frame to finally fix it.

And like someone pointed out, maybe some events fade away.  If women's publinx is not supported, the USGA could refocus on growing the game or maybe eliminate the event.

The committee should consider the first step, eliminating college players, and then go from there.

I would suggest that the Mid-Am was the USGA's first attempt to fix the college and private club kids who were dominating the Amateur events ...

And why would you assume that the USGA thinks that the PubLinks is broken? ... consider that this year will easily be the most publicized PubLinks ever because of a 15-year old girl who practices at a private club and receives special invites not normally available to the Joe or Jane Six-Pack.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2005, 11:25:34 AM »
Scott,

I would just eliminate college players from being eligible for Publinx. That is easy to pronounce, sounds easy, and I acknowledge it would be difficult.  However, it would be best in my opinion to do just that.

If womens' publinx had poor response, and I was in charge, I wouldn't cancel it.  Of course, I'm not in charge of squat but  that this possibility would arise if college players were eliminated is noted.  

Eliminate college players and drive on.  Build up the women's publinx as necesssary.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2005, 11:26:14 AM »
RJ:

I'm applying the USGA's standard to its own event.  It fails.  Miserably.  Bemowski is a good player, but how successful has he been in national amateur events?  He wins the Senior because it successfully captures its intended field.  He doesn't even feel like going to the Public Links because he knows the kid that wins will turn pro right after the next Masters.

Tommy:

I couldn't read the book.  The very beginning is virtually unreadable to me.  While he may have some points, I don't agree with his accusatory tone and underlying premise on the ball issue.  (People have yet to run a 3 minute mile.  Nobody will ever average 400 yards per drive despite having data you could extrapolate to conclude that.  Remember my thesis - everything is now capped where before there was room for improvement.)

One similarity with shamateurism and the ball is that the USGA is anything but proactive.  Perhaps I should skip a few chapters and give it a try.

JOHN

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2005, 11:59:10 AM »
....presented by Pizza Hut?

rgkeller

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2005, 12:43:28 PM »
James Renner and his father won the Mass  Father and Son.

The tournament requires that both players be members of the same club.

The younger Renner played in this years Publinks.


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2005, 12:46:32 PM »
Should it be the USGA APL Mid-AM?

Or not at all.  Either would be better than this, which functions as a Buy.com to the Amateur's PGA Tour.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2005, 12:49:11 PM »
Foxborough Country Club, where the Renners are members, is semi-private.

FCC info
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Geoffrey Childs

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2005, 01:01:44 PM »

I"m reminded of something a guest on this site by the name of BarneyF said about 4 years ago:

...We all know your Tuesday night league emulates the origins of golf at TOC far more than those concerned with the restoration of Yale. ...

Dave-

Please do tell us why this is so and while you are at it please tell us what one has to do with the other and why one is implicated as not being important?

This is one of the more stupid analogies you have raised.






Tommy_Naccarato

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2005, 01:06:46 PM »
Brett,

Don't get me wrong for one second, I think her talents as a golfer are great for the Sport of Golf. I'm rooting for her to win the Pub Links all the way. But, to remain true to John's topic, yes, I think the event is broken. I think Michelle Wie is playing by the rules and a status which has been PERSONALLY AND PRIVATELY crafted and handed to her by the Executive Director of the Golf's largest governing body.

You ask:

Quote
Do you think Michelle Wie's lifestyle is more conducive to good golf than that of the big-time college golfers in the PubLinks field? How much more benefit can she get from access to her world-famous swing coach than a college player gets from access to full-time coaching plus frequent work with famous swing teachers, short-game experts and mental-game consultants? I doubt she practices at any better facilities than the top college teams use.

Yes, I do.

I'll lay a dollar to a dime she has nothing but the very best trainers, yoga/pilates/fitness trainers, food and health instructors and DOCTORS that IMG's money can buy. Michelle's "handlers" probably even make her bed for her.

As you know, collegiant players aren't allowed those immenities from outside sources because they would be in violation of NCAA rules. Some of these "collegians" do in fact come from families of substance and wealth. There are others that do not. All of them balance their studies, their golf games, and even their side jobs to try to make it all work. It's all a part of working hard while growing-up--a process that doesn't seem to ever stop! While Michelle Wie undoubtedly is a good daughter, student and can be viewed as a positive role model to many others in her age group and bracket (The Anti-Brittany Spears if you will) and with the help of IMG handlers, she will become the same sheltered and protected individual that will have the personality that IMG has carefully crafted for her so that she can sell, sell, sell.

 She is a 15-year old "little" girl that is ready to turn professional, and is ready to completely bypass college and/or the rest of her high school education; or get it by way of the very best tutors and home-schooled educators that money can buy, just like many of today's younger tennis stars--further proof that modern golf is becoming more and more like modern tennis.

After all of my rambling my question to you is, does this sound like she's a public course player? (Well, maybe two years ago she was!)

Quote
I doubt she practices at any better facilities than the top college teams use.

Brett, I'm not crazy about the collegiants playing Pub Links either, unless they play, and are handicap-card carrying members of a true Public Links. (This would mean by definition that the Karsten Course at OSU, even Notre Dame's Warren Course as anything but a Pub Links.)  And I agree with you, there is without a doubt, a definition there of the term that is as convoluted as the latest edition of the USGA ball specs!

At this point, to even grant her the same Amateur status as Bobby Jones or Francis Ouimet is borderline ridiculous, and a harrowing image of what has become of the state of the Sport.

John, I found the opening chapters of The Future of Golf to be some of the most insightful, most accurate descriptions of the failings of the Game to date. Ben Crenshaw, Peter Aliss, Ian Baker-Finch, Nick Faldo and many, many others also feel the same. But what do they know compared to you! :) ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2005, 01:09:12 PM »
John C:

You are 100% on target.

I had the opportunity to play in a few of the USGA Public Links Championships and frankly the tounrment has become a de facto extension of a college tournament.

Let's face the facts -- the genesis of the Public Links event going back to 1922 was to provide an outlet for the non-affiliated golfer to play. The championship was to be come the working man's event since those folks who played public golf could likely not play in the US Am at that time because one of the stipulations (since changed) was that you had to be a member of a regular club in order to be eligible.

It is not supposed to be an event for the college scholarship player who ALREADY has a NCAA Championship and US Amateur as their top tier events.

I have nothing against Michelle Wie so before the barkers begin to yelp that's not my point or interest.

The Public Links event is for bonafide public course players and if need be an age minimum should be instituted -- how about 30+. Those who are gifted juniors already have their national championship event -- allow the working man and woman to have a level playing field for their own.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2005, 01:15:00 PM »
I'd be in favor of an age minimum for the APL. I think that would bring it more in line with its intent. 30 seems about right.

In the meantime, its main function seems to be a side-door into the Masters, and, as such, it's a pretty fascinating animal, mis-begotten though it may have become.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brent Hutto

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2005, 01:26:10 PM »
I'll lay a dollar to a dime she has nothing but the very best trainers, yoga/pilates/fitness trainers, food and health instructors and DOCTORS that IMG's money can buy. Michelle's "handlers" probably even make her bed for her.

As you know, collegiant players aren't allowed those immenities from outside sources because they would be in violation of NCAA rules. Some of these "collegians" do in fact come from families of substance and wealth. There are others that do not. All of them balance their studies, their golf games, and even their side jobs to try to make it all work. It's all a part of working hard while growing-up--a process that doesn't seem to ever stop!

I'm not trying to nit-pick the topic to death but college players aren't allowed to hire or be given all those amenities by anyone other than their school. They do in fact receive top-notch training, coaching and head-shrinking services if they're from a big-budget program at a top university. I really do believe that the difference in access to those resources between a Duke University women's team member and Michelle Wie is not zero but it's small enough to be of questionable impact on their respective games.

But let's not further belabor the whole NCAA business. I think we basically agree on that being a disjunction in its own right between the appearance and reality of "amateurism".

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:USGA: This event is broken
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2005, 01:42:58 PM »
EXACTLY! ;)

Although I do think whatever head shrinkers that Lynn Shackelford had at UCLA, they had to be the very best! 8)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back