SI Golf Roundtable

[Mike Hendren]

Tommy's been drinking far too much Long Island iced tea lately.

A new moniker is perhaps in order:  Emperor Moonbeam.

[A_Clay_Man]

In the interests of open discourse, does anyone have the ability, right, or wherewithall to post the full discussion?

Maybe it was in the editing, but, I couldn't help think of the dysfunctionality projected.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sugarless--Long Island Ice Tea!

Moonbeam is in order, but you'll find that I have better adivce for instructions on how to ride a comet.

[Bill Gayne]

If David Fay wants to know what it takes to get kids involved in the game, he just needs to asks the moms. I highly doubt many moms would say that they would like their son or duaghter to get involved in the game as a caddy.

The moms would probably say that they want dad to take the kids to the game or through an organized school or league activity. Moms run the agenda for the kids and golf isn't on it.

[Brian Phillips]

If David Fay wants to know what it takes to get kids involved in the game, he just needs to asks the moms. I highly doubt many moms would say that they would like their son or duaghter to get involved in the game as a caddy.

The moms would probably say that they want dad to take the kids to the game or through an organized school or league activity. Moms run the agenda for the kids and golf isn't on it.
Bill, you are a very wise man.  You have hit the nail on the head and they are my thoughts exactly.  Golf should be about being together with your sons and daughters and if you want them to play golf then you have play together with them and put the time in with them.  We shouldn't be relying on a caddy program and just dumping them off at the nearest club.  Kids should be allowed to be kids as long as they can.  We expect children to grow up too quickly these days.  It is up to clubs to create junior programs and junior memberships.  Active involvement from parents, clubs and Pros.

[TEPaul]

Now getting kids to caddy is taking their childhood away from them? What a load of crap that is. How did all those people who caddied as kids in generations past ever end up surviving if that's true?

Here's one great reason kids should caddy---if they do they can all grow up and be like the impressive Bradley Klein---and what kid would not dream of growing up and being like Bradley Klein?

I'm not certain that Brad caddied as a kid but I'm pretty sure he did, and I believe he learnt some very valuable lessons about people and life very early because of it.

Let me explain what I mean by that and why I say that.

A few years ago there was a fair sized forum in Philadelphia and the subject of it was restoration architecture. The participants in the discussion were a well-known local radio personality moderating the discussion, Tom Fazio, Merion Green Chairman Wilson Greenwood, and the great Bradley Klein.

Tom Fazio went first and dominated the time allotlment by taking some of Wilson Greenwood's time and most of Bradley's. The Faz talked quite a bit about golf architecture generally, a bit about restoration architecture (telling the crowd, to their complete amazement, that he and his uncle agreed 25 years previous never to get involved again in restoration architecture because there was no money in it) and he talked a whole lot on the general subject of money.

Wilson Greenwood talked briefly about the restoration of Merion East and how the project had actually been on-going for about a dozen years.

And then Bradley's turn came. The moderator introduced Brad and asked him how and when he got interested in golf and golf architecture and what his first impressions were.

Bradley turned and looked out and around the crowd of about 200 pretty rich types who were basically the presidents, golf and green chairmen of the 120 or so clubs of the Golf Association of Philadelphia, and then after an appropriate pause Bradley said;

"I lived near a course in New York and I went over there as a kid (I think he said to caddy too) and at that early and young point in my life I realize that rich people can be real idiots!"

Well, I'm listening to this---and I'm watching that entire crowd of about 200 rich people all looking at each other as if to ask---did we hear what we just heard---and then to my relief they all started roaring with laughter.

That's Bradley Klein, a man wise beyond his years and probably a little kid who was wiser than any of those old rich farts sitting in that restoration forum, and all due to his life experiences of caddying and the wonderful observations and responsibilities that came with it.

This is why kids should caddy, and again, not the least reason being, if they do, they can all grow up and be more like Bradley Klien!

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Bradley Klein is the way he is because of his intelligence not for the fact of caddying for rich people.  If clubs didn't have such a poor junior system there would not be any need for people like Mr Klein to have to caddy for rich people to be able to get a game. Just let him join the club...

Look the number of people playing golf is going down in USA it is going up in Europe and the rest of the world.  Golf is one of Scandinavia's fastest growing sport we don't have a caddy system anywhere in Scandinavia.  We do not however discriminate against juniors and they are allowed to join and have full members rights (they play the course anytime they want to, there are no junior tee times).  They do not have votes at the AGM.

It just doesn't sound to me that the caddy system works in getting enough juniors to play the game.  I might be wrong though.

Brian

[TEPaul]

"I might be wrong though."

Brian:

Yes indeed---it's not just that you might be wrong--you are wrong.  

[Steve Lang]

 

Yeah kids caddying in 2005.. its alot different today than in 1965 or 1925..

I did it about three times in 1965 for my dad when he played with his friends, I learned some grips, stances, and swings not to copy, some new cuss words and phrases, how cheat when no one was looking (i.e., foot wedge) etc..  and most importantly, that I'd rather play golf than watch..

[Brad Klein]

TEP - I did indeed caddy, starting when I was 14. Spent Woodstock weekend looping in 1969. Club caddying at a place my parents could never have afforded had a profound impact on my life, as I learned several things that I doubt I would have learned as easily elsewhere:

-rich people can be really stupid
-never be afraid of anyone
-always walk in the front door, not the side door
-act like you belong


I think the loss of caddying was a terrible blow to the pipeline of golf.

By the way, this is exactly the topic I'm speaking on July 6 at the Maine Golf Association Caddy Scholarship Dinner in Auburn.

[Brian Phillips]

Brad and Tom P,

I agree that the caddying thing is good but what is better Brad that you had to caddy to be allowed to play the game or that a junior membership scheme affords you to join and play everyday?

Here in Norway (I am not saying it is perfect or better just explaining) any kid can join the club for about 150 bucks and play as much as they want.  They also receive training twice a week from the pro.  

Brian

[TEPaul]

Brian:

Over here in the good old US of A we obviously aren't as nice to kids as you all are over there in Norway. Over here at clubs we don't want the little no-neck monsters around and would never think of letting them play our courses and certainly not for $150. If one of the little monster wants to come up with about $250,000 however, maybe we would consider it but probably not. Over here if these little bothers want something they pretty much have to earn it and caddying is one way to do that. Plus if we happen to miss a shot they're much easier to scream at and blame than an adult caddy.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Good to see the humour is still there.  I hear what you are saying.  Maybe Norway is really a socialist state as I have thought all these years..that is why the young boys have to do conscription in Norway at the age of 18!!  Even the mums are glad to get rid of them.

Brian

[Michael Whitaker]

It a recent issue of Golf Digest David Ledbetter had this to say about junior golf in the US:

"We just need to encourage and accommodate more young golfers."

It requires an overhaul in the way private clubs look at membership. "I don't know of a single club in a big metropolitan area that invites kids to join without requiring parents to be members," says Leadbetter, "and that's the key. Some of the best clubs in Europe like Sunningdale and Wentworth have a nucleus of teenage members. And why not? So many courses are empty during the week and at off-peak times. In Denmark," Leadbetter says, "approximately 10 percent of memberships are given to juniors... and they've got 40,000 golfers on waiting lists to join clubs. We have to create a different atmosphere to cultivate young players."

Here is a link to the article: http://www.golfdigest.com/search/index.ssf?/features/gd200504tarde.html

[Ken Fry]

Is Fay on drugs with this quote:

'How can you say golf is more elitist? Everything argues against that. Before any of us came along, the game was private. It's completely different now.'

or this one..

'On everything. Americans would say it's obscene that we have gas at $2 and rising. Yes, golf is expensive, but so is every other leisure experience.'

I'm surprised more on this board didn't go after Fay for this quote.

Shakleford throws out the statistic that the top 100 courses in the country average over $100 per round and all Fay comes back with is, "Well, everything is getting expensive?!?!?!"

I don't suppose that remark will be part of his media shoot for the First Tee program.  So on the one hand, get kids involved from all walks of life to a great game full of life lesson possibilities, then get greeted with his point of view on the costs.  Brilliant.....

Ken

[TEPaul]

" Maybe Norway is really a socialist state as I have thought all these years."

Brian:

You're joking right? The Scandanavian countries are the virtual definition of socialism (not that there's anything wrong with that).  

[PThomas]

June 18's Golfweek reports that the total population of core golfers, feel 4.7%!!!

when I read this kind of stuff I get a (more than a little?) scared for the future of my favorite pastime

some great ideas posted alread, like Kelly's for the 2800 yard course, etc...

but lots of idiocacy like the situation Kelly raised about some clubs not letting kids go out with their parents

are there places where kids can go and play all they want for next to nothing?  

can just about any kid get a FREE set of clubs if he wants?

can kids a series of FREE lessons and range use for almost zero?

if no to any  of the above , why not?  the PGA, PGA Tour, USGA have tens of millions of dollars at their disposal...what DO they do with all that money??? talk about a pet peeve

are any kids of courses  being built inside big cities so kids can actually get to a course to play it without having to drive forever to get to one

they could do stuff like this and say that in their ad, instead of just saying "Play Golf America"

my family  stayed at Kingsmill in VA a few weeks ago...they had par 3 course, no hole longer than 100 yards, and it was free for all of us, and the kids got clubs to borrow for free as well..how cool is that

I know Kenny Perry runs a course, I hope he does things like this

I remember a different thread awhile ago where it was being debated about municipal golf courses

this seems to be a perfect role for them, letting kids play for almost nothing, getting them into the game, etc

this is so frustrating, I just don't get it, I wish I had the resources to do more.....

[Stuart Donald]

Great post Jack Ass

I will gladly buy you a beer if you end up in this neck of the fairway metals... I was dissapointed in the interview as there is no meat to it and certainly no result. The more people tell these guys that things are going astray, the less they listen.

Geoff,
I could see myself at that table with veins popping from my neck in frustration. I applaud you for staying calm...

The blackberry/iPod quotes may be relevant however - in 2020 virtual golf may be the only place left with enough yardage for the pros to play. Perhaps the USGA could invest in EA Sports to secure its future - this would solve the kids problem to...

Cheers

stu