[Kenny Lee Puckett]

She couldn't break par at the 6,900 yard Colonial where Justin shot a 61 with a bogeyton 18 on Sunday.

At PVGC at 7,000 yards, I'd take the Walker Cupper for 18 at Match Play.
At PVGC at 6,700 yards, 50/50 for 18.
At PVGC at 6,400 yards, I'd take Annika.

Over 72 holes at medal play, I would take Annika every time at every distance.  More fairways and greens.

JWK

[Mike Nuzzo]

She couldn't break par at the 6,900 yard Colonial where Justin shot a 61 with a bogeyton 18 on Sunday.

With what frequency could Justin shoot a 59 at Moon Valley Country Club?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

In today's Philadelphia Inquirer:

Sorenstam overcomes challenge of distance

By Joe Logan

Inquirer Staff Writer

For Annika Sorenstam fans who wondered what she shot at Pine Valley on Monday and Merion on Tuesday, here are a few details:

Sorenstam shot an even-par 70 at Pine Valley, from tees that made the course about 6,600 yards.

At Merion, Sorenstam didn't keep a formal score, mostly because it was so hot and she was tired and picked up on a couple of holes.

From Merion's members' tees - essentially the ones used for the 1950 U.S. Open, which make the course about 6,500 yards - Sorenstam air-mailed her tee shot at the 18th hole about 20 yards past the fairway marker for Ben Hogan's famous 1-iron shot onto the green. Sorenstam hit a 4-iron onto the green.

"Watching her drive the ball, distance was not an issue," Merion head pro Scott Nye, who played with Sorenstam and two members, said yesterday.

Sorenstam, who was the guest of a member at both courses, started out with back-to-back birdies, Nye said, but the round was so informal, they didn't keep score.

On one hole, for instance, when Sorenstam's ball drew a nasty fried-egg lie in a bunker, Nye flipped it out and gave her a better lie.

"It was almost 100 degrees, and she was so doggone tired," Nye said. "And she was just goofing around."

So, which course did she like better, Pine Valley or Merion?

"She didn't compare the courses," Nye said. "She was just ecstatic to play both."

[mike_malone]

 Steve,

  When I read this today I expected you would post it.

 (This is just one of my pet peeves, but ----it was not "almost 100 degrees". But it was very humid; that's what takes it out of you.  The other day it was 95 but only 36 % humidity;it felt great.)

    I can certainly imagine she was drained;winning a major;playing PVGC in heat and humidity; and then running out of gas at Merion.

[George Pazin]

Sometimes we forget golf is a game. And a damn fun one at that.

I hope Annika wins the Slam. She has certainly done it the old fashioned way - she earned it.

[Jim Franklin]

Mike Nuzzo -

I bet Justin Leonard has a MUCH better chance of shooting 59 from the same tees Annika used at Moon Valley than she does of shootong 61 at Colonial.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Mike Nuzzo -

I bet Justin Leonard has a MUCH better chance of shooting 59 from the same tees Annika used at Moon Valley than she does of shootong 61 at Colonial.

Jim -

Thanks for taking the ball for me!

Mike -

I am a big Annika fan.  I think that Justin would have no problem shooting a 59 at Moon Valley from the same tees.

That said, at some point, the physiological strength issue is going to some into play in terms of her distance.  Also, she will not be throwing short iron darts at a lot of holes once the yardage gets to 6,900+ yards.  FWIW, I saw every hole from both rounds she played at Colonial.  I was most impressed with her ability to consistently find greens with her mid iron approaches while the men were spinning 8-SW's.  That said, her average approach finished more than 30' from the hole - not optimal birdie putt distance.

Overall, I am impressed by her robotic consistency, her steely competitiveness, and her sense of humor.  Her text message to Tiger on Sunday after her LPGA victory was:   "9-9"  She was referring to the # of majors that they had each won.

I hope that it is 11-10 (Tiger's a lock at St. Andrew's) by the end of the year.

JWK

[Clay Huestis]

I know I am taking this out of context, but are you serious when you say "I think Justin would have no problem shooting a 59 at Moon Valley from the same tees"?

Maybe on the same type of day in which he shoots 61 at Colonial, but on any given day?  What would he shoot at Moon Valley when he is having the type of day that results in a 76 at the TPC course of the week?

I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of what pros would do to certain courses under certain conditions and at certain lengths.  Let just assume that Moon Valley plays like a par 68 for a male Tour Pro.  That means they need 9 birdies on this "adjusted" course with NO PAR FIVES.  That means he needs to birdie half the holes.  Lets say that tour pros are 50/50 from 10 feet, just for the sake of argument.  Then if he hits ALL 18 approaches to 10 feet and puts average, he will shoot 59.  Even if he has a wedge into every single green, hitting all his wedges to an average of 10 feet is an exceptional day.  A tour pro shooting a 59 on ANY course over 6000 yards is a good day.  Doesn't mean its not possible, just that it qualifies as a good effort.  Sure Justin could probably shoot a 64 or 65 without too much trouble with the course set up to LPGA standards, but 59 is not a "normal" day.  Lets give Annika a little credit here.

Also, there is a lot of cherry picking going on in this thread...so and so could be so and so IF THEY WERE HOT.  Well, gee, if Michelle Wie is hot, she can beat Adam Scott for 36 holes in Tour conditions.  Oh wait, she DID do that.

[Jim Franklin]

Clay -

Justin would be playing from 6400 yards, maybe. He will be hitting sand wedge for an approach on nearly every hole. I like his chances with a sand wedge. The 76 he shot at the TPC was from a lot more than 6400 yards .

[Clay Huestis]

Jim, I agree with your statement that Justin has a better chance of shooting 59 on Moon Valley than Annika does of shooting 61 at Colonial.  However, I still don't think he has a significant chance of shooting 59 on any given day.  Maybe in 100 days he does it once or twice.  Probably throws up a lot of 62s or 63s.  The shorter length doesn't benefit him THAT much.  It has diminishing returns.  If a tour pro is on, hitting his driver straight and 300+, a 7000 yard course is short as well.  So like I said, call it a par 68.  Then let's say the par 3s average 175 (probably an 8 iron for Justin).  That makes the average of the 14 remaining holes 407 yds.  Lets say he averages 300 off the tee, so that leaves him an average approach of 100 yards.  To get that into 10 feet, that means he would be hitting it on average to within 3 percent of the distance he has in to the hole.  One of the best wedge players ever, Tom Kite, averaged 7 or 8 pct if I recall from the Dave Pelz book.  I maintain a tour player has to play GREAT to break 60 on any 6400 yd course.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jim F.
I agree he would have a much better chance.
That isn't what I said.

I think that Justin would have no problem shooting a 59 at Moon Valley from the same tees.

JWK
If it were no problem, are you saying he could probably shoot a 55 if given enough opportunities?  
How about a Bobby Riggs type hyped set up.  One round vs. Annika - televised on national TV - I say that kind of pressure on him it might be an even match - without it he beats her 4-1.

The fault I find with your logic was you were comparing 425 round scores from the best players in the world vs. Annika's 2 scores.
Give Annika 425 rounds at Colonial I bet she shoots a 62.

[Jim Franklin]

I don't think a tour player has to play GREAT to break 60 from 6400 yards on Moon Valley. Maybe he has to play great at Maidstone, but not Moon Valley.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

I think that Justin would have no problem shooting a 59 at Moon Valley from the same tees.

JWK
If it were no problem, are you saying he could probably shoot a 55 if given enough opportunities?  
How about a Bobby Riggs type hyped set up.  One round vs. Annika - televised on national TV - I say that kind of pressure on him it might be an even match - without it he beats her 4-1.

The fault I find with your logic was you were comparing 425 round scores from the best players in the world vs. Annika's 2 scores.
Give Annika 425 rounds at Colonial I bet she shoots a 62.

Mike -

I hope that I didn't hit your sensitive bone here. Some thoughts in response to your post, and then back to the Open...

I don't think that Justin or any male professional could shoot 55 from the Forward Tees at Moon Valley, let alone the Women's Tournament Tees.

ABC had a Annika Battle of the Prime time stars a few years ago, and neither she nor Ms. Webb did very much for their respective teams or the ratings for that matter.  Neither Annika nor anyone besides Tiger can grab the attention of the casual sports fan.  Sure people watch the Majors, but that's because the casual fan has been told that the Majors are the only tournaments that count.

A 59 is a special feat - especially for a person in competition as Annika was.  I am not belittling her accomplishment, I am merely pointing out that a 59 for a top 30 PGA TOUR pro at 6,400 yards is quite doable.  Annika had problems breaking par at 6,900 yards not only because of the immense pressure of a woman competing in a man's world at Colonial, but also because she was hitting 4 irons to greens, when the men were taking dead aim with 9 irons or less.

I will refer you two selected versions of my two prior posts on this thread so that you get a better feeling for my statements:

#1 "FWIW, I saw every hole from both rounds she played at Colonial.  I was most impressed with her ability to consistently find greens with her mid iron approaches while the men were spinning 8-SW's.  That said, her average approach finished more than 30' from the hole - not optimal birdie putt distance.

Overall, I am impressed by her robotic consistency, her steely competitiveness, and her sense of humor.  Her text message to Tiger on Sunday after her LPGA victory was:  "9-9"  She was referring to the # of majors that they had each won.

I hope that it is 11-10 (Tiger's a lock at St. Andrew's) by the end of the year."

#2  "At PVGC at 7,000 yards, I'd take the Walker Cupper for 18 at Match Play.
At PVGC at 6,700 yards, 50/50 for 18.
At PVGC at 6,400 yards, I'd take Annika.

Over 72 holes at medal play, I would take Annika every time at every distance (Vs. a Walker Cupper - added for clarity).  More fairways and greens.

Mike, you can have the last word.

Respectfully,

JWK

[Clay Huestis]

I haven't played Moon Valley, but when I lived in Arizona I don't recall anyone talking about it being extraordinarily easy....maybe it is.  However, the men's Tour has played some cupcakes over the years on the Hope and Vegas rotations....and there have been 2 59s, one in the Hope and one in Vegas.  The Hope has a 6600 yd course on which no one has broken 60, even though it is set up to accomodate the ams.  Can Moon Valley really be that much easier?  I still say 59 ANYWHERE is great golf and I think tour players would agree.

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