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Jim Johnson

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2005, 02:04:06 PM »
I did have the pleasure of playing the Monterey courses last year, and while Pebble and Spyglass are fantastic, I can honestly say for the money that taking a trip down the Kootenay trail and playing Golden, Eagle Ranch, Greywolf, Bootleg Gap and Copper Point for about the same price as Pebble Beach alone... well you get my drift.

Chris,
Any comments on "Copper Point"? I'm playing there in August, in addition to Trickle Creek (another Furber track), Salmon Arm (yet another Furber design), and Stewart Creek near Canmore.

JJ

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2005, 03:32:06 PM »
Bryan

Its always the way, ain't it.  Tuggin' people's shirts to have a go.  This is always the drawback when speaking of North American golf.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Greg Beaulieu

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2005, 05:44:53 PM »
I'm on leave this season because of my university work. I haven't seen Les's routing, but when I heard the excited news from another member that "there's even an island green!" - I was pretty disappointed. Frankly, in this age of information availability, I don't know how so many people who are so in love with golf could be so clueless about what makes a golf course fun.

I'm afraid we're going to trade in an old course with a lot of character for a new course with "fair lies" and "signature holes" without an ounce of distinction. Everyone will love it. It's depressing. Ton's of money; "championship" course; another faceless Canadian golf course, known only to locals and Score Golf. I hope not - but I wouldn't bet against it.

Adam, I tend to agree, although with a caveat -- I have been a member since 1990 and over time I grew to despise the existing course because of the blind shots, bad lies, and uneven conditioning. So I have long been a proponent of changes or relocation. I think "character" only goes so far before it starts to become an irritant and that's where I am with the existing Brightwood course.

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I am glad we didn't get Graham Cooke though. Christ, if I see his name on ONE MORE course out here!! You'd swear he was the only one in the world.

Island GREEN!?!? Come ON!!

I have to admit that the plan looks OK (but what can you tell about features, contouring, etc. from a routing plan?) except for the island green. I do understand that at this stage it is considered optional, in that there is also another green on the plan for that hole. However, it just seems terribly gimmicky to me although it would undoubtedly be boffo with some of the local press. I can't imagine many of the Ladies Day regulars there would be in favor though given some of their carry distance challenges.

The more I look around on the web (largely thanks to Jeff Mingay's website and Robert Thompson's blog) the more I regret the committee not asking Jeff or Rod Whitman to make a pitch for this job. Not to mention a Donald Steel or someone else a bit more unique to these parts. I don't know what Furber's fee is but I wonder if he is offering them a deal? Maybe it's his version of a Donald Ross mail order design (as I suspect Ross' contribution to Brightwood was)!  

I guess we should be grateful that Mr. Cooke didn't get this one too. The developers (Clayton-Dexter group) are currently building a course outside of Chester and you can guess who their designer is. There was some initial pressure, I understand, to take him as part of their development proposal.

I think this designer question may not be cast in stone though. The membership hasn't heard the rationale of the committee for their decision nor seen much of the plans for the course so once detailed presentations are made there may be some pushback. At this stage I don't know enough to comment one way or the other, but I am not yet sold on Furber. It just doesn't seem to fit somehow.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2005, 06:22:20 PM »
Adam, I tend to agree, although with a caveat -- I have been a member since 1990 and over time I grew to despise the existing course because of the blind shots, bad lies, and uneven conditioning. So I have long been a proponent of changes or relocation. I think "character" only goes so far before it starts to become an irritant and that's where I am with the existing Brightwood course.

I understand your feelings there. I do agree that the old course has outlived its day and needs to change if the club is to survive another 100 years, I'd just rather not trade it in for another high-end maintenance nightmare with no character or distinction (unless one calls an island green "distinction").

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The more I look around on the web (largely thanks to Jeff Mingay's website and Robert Thompson's blog) the more I regret the committee not asking Jeff or Rod Whitman to make a pitch for this job. Not to mention a Donald Steel or someone else a bit more unique to these parts. I don't know what Furber's fee is but I wonder if he is offering them a deal? Maybe it's his version of a Donald Ross mail order design (as I suspect Ross' contribution to Brightwood was)!

I have investigated that and Ross' most certainly was. But given the site, the routing there is pretty interesting. Let's face it - Old Brightwood is municipal quality when compared to the modern golf course, but if you investigate design a bit (as you have done) you can see that there are some really interesting people out there to work with, and that we could have something really special if we got the right guys together on it. As a designer myself, (albeit a different kind), I can't help but be upset about a job of this magnitude missing the boat right from the start with their choice of designer - and let's be frank - Les Furber doesn't have one course that the general populace of this site would find especially notable. Although, I must admit again - I haven't seen the plan - but as you say, how much can you tell from that?

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I guess we should be grateful that Mr. Cooke didn't get this one too. The developers (Clayton-Dexter group) are currently building a course outside of Chester and you can guess who their designer is. There was some initial pressure, I understand, to take him as part of their development proposal.

Yes, that's Carl Potter's course, and yes, it is Cooke from what I hear.

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I think this designer question may not be cast in stone though. The membership hasn't heard the rationale of the committee for their decision nor seen much of the plans for the course so once detailed presentations are made there may be some pushback. At this stage I don't know enough to comment one way or the other, but I am not yet sold on Furber. It just doesn't seem to fit somehow.

Well, you're more likely to get the ear of someone there than I. I'm too new a member and can't get through to many. But I'll do anything I can to help if given a chance.

I have not played any of Rod and Jeff's work, but I have spoken to Jeff on several occasions and I like his philosophy. I know that Rod has worked on some fantastic projects as well. I also know that Jeff really cares - and that goes a long way with me.

It ain't over 'til it's over.


Greg Beaulieu

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2005, 08:16:44 PM »

I have not played any of Rod and Jeff's work, but I have spoken to Jeff on several occasions and I like his philosophy. I know that Rod has worked on some fantastic projects as well. I also know that Jeff really cares - and that goes a long way with me.

It ain't over 'til it's over.



I hope not, because I can't help but think how great it would be for someone to come to the new site and do something in homage to the great Stanley Thompson, my favorite designer by far. Every time I play Digby Pines I have a constant smile plastered on my face, both for the course itself and my good luck in being able to play it at all by having such a gem relatively close by. From the very first time I stepped on it (or at least when I got to #2 tee) I just knew the place was special, even before I knew anything about Thompson. From what I understand, Rod and Jeff would be the guys to do that kind of work. Let's hope it's not over.

Dave Kemp

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2005, 08:33:25 PM »
Pardon me while I butt into the middle of a conversation between two Bluenosers.  :D

We are headed to the East Coast for a summer family vacation including some golf.  Other than Highlands Links we don't have any definites on our itinerary yet.  We are going to have 3 days in the Lunenberg area.  I see there is a 9 hole Donald Ross design in Liverpool and a few others along the Lighthouse Route. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Dave

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2005, 09:40:13 PM »
In that area, I'd recommend Chester Golf Club in Chester, as well as well as Osprey Ridge. Digby Pines is a wonderful Thompson Layout.

The Pines is definitely one of my favorites. I love that place.

Glen Arbour is an expensive, high-end Graham Cooke layout in Halifax. You might also find your way to Northumberland Links, which is up in - Pictou? On the Northumberland Strait.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 09:42:56 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

Chris Perry

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2005, 03:07:30 AM »
I did have the pleasure of playing the Monterey courses last year, and while Pebble and Spyglass are fantastic, I can honestly say for the money that taking a trip down the Kootenay trail and playing Golden, Eagle Ranch, Greywolf, Bootleg Gap and Copper Point for about the same price as Pebble Beach alone... well you get my drift.

Chris,
Any comments on "Copper Point"? I'm playing there in August, in addition to Trickle Creek (another Furber track), Salmon Arm (yet another Furber design), and Stewart Creek near Canmore.

JJ

I've only played Trickle Creek when I went down the trail last. To me it fell into that "bowling alley" stigma that I give most private clubs, and at that time there were definitely no "trickling creeks" as they were all bone dry. Of all the ones I played, including Golden, Greywolf, and Eagle Ranch, it stood out the least. Maybe it was the elk that destryoyed the entire front end of my car when I was driving through Kimberly trying to find the course that put me in such a foul mood.

Funny thing is, I shot my best round there, ate up holes 7-17 before hacking my way up 18, but the other rounds I played just seemed more memorable even though I didn't play as well. The sig hole is a really nice view mind you, but all the other courses have at least 5 holes each that rival it.

I'm going to try and play Copper Point in June when I go on holidays. I got a pamphlet for Panorama with a 3 night accomodation/3 round deal at Greywolf, Eagle Ranch and Copper Point for $300. Not too shabby though I'm sure the room will be at the Motel 8, hehe.

I'd like to play those others someday as well, I fgure one run through the Thompson for Salmon Arm, Hyde Mountain, The Dunes and Sun Rivers, and waaay out to Canmore for Banff, Jasper, Stewart Creek, Silvertip, and Kananaskis would be nice trips.

Dave Kemp

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2005, 10:01:12 AM »
Adam,

Thanks for the suggestions, we will keep Chester in mind.  Unfortunately we won't be getting to the Digby area this time around.

Do you know anything about the White Resort Course in Liverpool that "claims" to be a Ross layout?  Website does not show much.

Regards,

Dave

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2005, 11:09:58 AM »
As Understand it, the course at White Point Beach is the only Ross course in Nova Scotia to actually have been visited by Ross himself.

It's an old 9 hole layout. I've not played it, but I get the sense that it's pretty rough - but I have friends that really enjoyed it.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2005, 02:33:14 PM »
Greg and Adam,

Rod Whitman and I certainly appreciate your thoughts. And your compliments on our philosophy and work. Thanks.

It would be really neat to see the new Brightwood draw on the current course's heritage. In my opinion, the club has a lot of history that shouldn't be ignored in planning for the new site. It'd be unfortunate if one of the most historic golf clubs in Canada loses its history through a move.  

Moreover, building an old style course would differentiate the new Brightwood from those other Halifax area courses opened recently. Although, perhaps a majority of Brightwood's membership wants the club's new course to be more the same, not different (read: unique)?

I hope not.  
jeffmingay.com

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2005, 02:49:51 PM »
It would be really neat to see the new Brightwood draw on the current course's heritage. In my opinion, the club has a lot of history that shouldn't be ignored in planning for the new site.  

Interesting post, Jeff. If you were presenting to the Brightwood membership, how might you suggest ways of drawing on this heritage or history in the design of a new course?

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2005, 03:18:04 PM »
Adam,

Brightwood is a historic club, right? I wouldn't advise any club with an interesting history to strive to modernize. In doing so, they almost always lose their unique appeal, and just become another modern golf club facility.

All clubs need to focus on differentiating themselves with others. Ironically, most golfers are more interested in making their home course more like others they fancy. This is a mistake.

Again, I'd be neat to see Brightwood create an "old feel" at the new site. Not only on the golf course, but with the new clubhouse architecture and the overall site plan. Hopefully, this development group that's handling the move for the club has some style and taste. If they're just trying to build something to move the club off the land they're really after, I wish Brightwood a lot of luck.

Conceptually, I think it'd be interesting to draw on Donald Ross' architecture in planning and constructing the new Brightwood course. The Maritimes is without any good examples of Ross' work, which would make a new Brightwood modelled on Ross' style and philosophy very unqiue in the area. Moreover, a Ross-style golf course is a good fit with Brightwood's history.

I'm not so sure an island green fits  ;D  
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 03:22:50 PM by Jeff_Mingay »
jeffmingay.com

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2005, 03:31:24 PM »
According to club history, the first nine were designed by Willie Park Jr. and that nine was reworked and a second 9 was added by Ross' firm and the site work was overseen by Walter B. Hatch.

The club opened in 1914. The ceremonial first tee shot was struck by then Prime Minister, Robert Laird Borden.

The club has plenty of history and really plays up the Ross thing. (And doesn't pay much attention the Willie Park Jr.) But your ideas are interesting and I personally agree.

I would also be interested in some of the more superficial things like taking important course trees down, milling the lumber and using it in elements of the new facility. I too would like to see an old world charm reflected in the design of the new clubhouse - something more reminiscent of the original clubhouse.

http://www.brightwood.ns.ca/

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2005, 03:35:42 PM »
An island green? Ugh. Maybe Les can add a few five minute cart rides between holes for the fine folks in Nova Scotia.
Guys, why anyone would hire Les to build them a course is beyond me. I mean, at least Tom McBroom and Doug Carrick are pretty solid and neither have done much out east.
That said, I hear the site they've chosen for your new course is pretty weak and that at least one architect involved early on told your board just that.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2005, 03:53:01 PM »
Adam and Greg,

Have either of you seen the site for the proposed new course? While we're on the subject, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
jeffmingay.com

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2005, 04:59:10 PM »
The Maritimes is without any good examples of Ross' work

Jeff,

How much has Riverside in St. John, NB been altered? It's been 10 years since I played there, but I do seem to recall a real classical feel to the course and property, in addition to some strong back-to-front sloping greens. As competitors, we were given a yardage book that had a whole page dedicated to Donald Ross, but perhaps they were just hoping on the Ross bandwagon? I'll have to check the guide when I get home, if I can find it.

TK

Greg Beaulieu

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2005, 07:35:54 PM »

Moreover, building an old style course would differentiate the new Brightwood from those other Halifax area courses opened recently. Although, perhaps a majority of Brightwood's membership wants the club's new course to be more the same, not different (read: unique)?

Jeff, I think that a lot, maybe a majority, of current members don't want anything to change. The membership skews to the older side and for many they like the idea of a short, somewhat quirky course that is in the middle of town. A 7000-yd track 10 minutes away would cause a lot of them to leave. I think the committees recognize this though, and are counting on attracting a lot of new members with a new layout.

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All clubs need to focus on differentiating themselves with others. Ironically, most golfers are more interested in making their home course more like others they fancy. This is a mistake.

Again, I'd be neat to see Brightwood create an "old feel" at the new site. Not only on the golf course, but with the new clubhouse architecture and the overall site plan. Hopefully, this development group that's handling the move for the club has some style and taste. If they're just trying to build something to move the club off the land they're really after, I wish Brightwood a lot of luck.

I think there may be an element of making the new course like others nearby. There was an initial desire to make the new course competitive with Glen Arbour, complete with bentgrass fairways, etc., until the maintenance costs came to light. Similarly, the initial wish list for the new clubhouse would have put it on a par with the spa at La Costa until reality set in. While the committees have agreed on an overall vision for a new facility, there is still (in my view) not a whole lot of concensus on most of the details, nor an agreed-upon list of must-haves versus nice-to-haves.

I agree totally with the view of drawing on the good parts of our heritage. In our existing late-1960s clubhouse (not a particularly interesting design) there are some old photos of the original clubhouse, a Victorian building complete with tower. From the minute I heard of the plans for a new facility I was lobbying that the new clubhouse should have similar archtecture for the very reasons you specify, much like Adam also mentioned. I don't know how that will happen though, because ultimately the club is feeling pressure to make a move and the developer, while apparently recpetive to many items so far, is ultimately only getting into this to make a profit at the lowest risk possible. We are already in a position where we will have to take on debt to get what we want, so anything that potentially adds cost is not probable. OTOH, staying where we are will also require us to take on debt or a significant member assessment in order to keep the place operational much beyond another 5 years or so, and we would still be left with all of the existing shortcomings that have caused membership rates to go into a decline.

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Conceptually, I think it'd be interesting to draw on Donald Ross' architecture in planning and constructing the new Brightwood course. The Maritimes is without any good examples of Ross' work, which would make a new Brightwood modelled on Ross' style and philosophy very unqiue in the area. Moreover, a Ross-style golf course is a good fit with Brightwood's history.

I'm not so sure an island green fits  ;D  

Agreed. I really like your idea, especially since the club plays up its rather tenous existing Ross connection. Although, as I said in an earlier post, I am a fan of Stanley Thompson and I was wondering today, in thinking about the island green question, if he would have found that idea all that outrageous given some of his other somewhat provocative design features. Maybe he would have given us a schooner-shaped green or a lobster-shaped bunker? ;-)

Greg Beaulieu

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2005, 07:45:28 PM »
That said, I hear the site they've chosen for your new course is pretty weak and that at least one architect involved early on told your board just that.

Don't know on either point, Robert. The site currently under consideration is not the one the original invitations to designers were based upon, so maybe what you heard was based on that original site, which was an old quarry. That would have involved considerably more cost and involved some design compromises. That site is no longer under consideration.

I have not seen the site mostly because it is fairly inaccessible at the moment without a 4WD which I do not have. Looking at nearby land, it doesn't seem to be a bad site at all to my layman's eye. There are not a whole lot of large specimen trees but that is typical of these parts. The site is wooded with a mix of hardwoods (mostly birch and maple I think) and evergreens, but none seem particualrly large. The lake seems to be quite an asset. Maybe I'll do some poking around this weekend and see what I can find out.

I didn't realize until now that the latest newsletter has been posted on Brightwood's website. Page one is at the link below and offers a thumbnail sketch of the routing plan. But I'm sure that it is the material on page 2 that will get the group on this board going:

http://www.brightwood.ns.ca/newsapr2005.htm
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 07:50:11 PM by Greg Beaulieu »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bland Canadian Golf Courses
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2005, 09:27:49 AM »
Tyler,

Good question. I haven't seen Riverside in St. John. But I haven't heard much about it either, which suggests to me it's nothing special. I hope I'm wrong though.
jeffmingay.com