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Lawrence Largent

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Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« on: April 26, 2005, 06:04:46 PM »
I'm playing in the Holston Hills Invitational this weekend and each year I always wonder the same thing. #2 is the Cape hole at Holston and I wonder is the that tree supposed to be right in the middle of your line. Now before they lengthen the tee back 30 yards you could cut a driver around the tree to the left or draw the ball around the tree with a long iron or fairway wood. Now that they have lengthen the tee you either have to hit it over the tree which is really risky or draw a fairway wood around the tree. My question is was that tree in the original plans for the course. It just seems odd to have the tree there. Now I'm hoping Mr. Doak will chime in since he did some restoration work there a few years ago. The Pros at the course love the tree but it really just seems out of place to me especially since they have done some major tree removal in the past two years. I'll be taking alot of pictures in the practice round so I'll share them when I return next week. I played there in Dec. and they were building a new tee for number 13 and there really trying to lure the Senior PGA Championship I've been told. I hope those of you who have played the course could give your opinion on the 2nd and I"ll look forward to your comments.


Lawrence
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2005, 06:44:06 PM »
As a reference point from Ran's review:

"Ross's hole diagram shows the tree above, so he intended it to stay (at least for a while!). The ideal tee
ball on this Cape hole is a draw over the bunker at the right edge of the photograph.."


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Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2005, 09:05:24 PM »
I absolutely LOVE Holston Hills, and #2 is a fantastic cape.

But, sorry, I'm not a big lover of that tree.

 :P
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jonathan Cummings

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2005, 09:24:05 PM »
Paul - HH is in my top 5 of courses I would like to see.  I've heard so many good things about this 1928 Ross gem.  I had a conflict when the DRS met there and have always regretted not having re-arranging my priorities.

JC
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Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2005, 10:16:41 PM »
Jon

By all means, get there when you can.  It's a real gem.

Enjoy.

Slainche!!!

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Brad Klein

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2005, 10:42:02 PM »
I'd take it down in a second, even if it's an elm.
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RE Blanks

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2005, 10:49:33 PM »
I was there last week and hit a driver from the back tees with a nice draw.  The ball ended up about 5 paces from the rough on the right side of the fairway.  If I recall I had around 150 - 160 in.  I like the tree and I am anything but a tree lover.  I think this one serves a purpose.  There is a similar hole at Palmetto (#12 I think) that has the same tee shot with a tree in the line of flight.  #2 at HH is one of my favorites on the course and I think removing the tree would strip the stratagy from the hole.  I hope the Senior PGA plays at HH.  Fantastic course.  BTW - This is the kind of thread I love to see on this site.  Good luck.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2005, 10:55:05 PM »
RE

> I think removing the tree would strip the stratagy from the hole.


Do you make this statement because of the technology in use today?

Don't you think a Cape hole, especially one with this much of a rolling fairway, lends itself to a great deal of strategy?

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

RE Blanks

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2005, 11:02:26 PM »
Yes I think that if you removed the tree stratagy would still remain with the water carry and short fairway bunker, but I think without the tree the bombers would turn the hole into a drive sand wedge.  I would like the hole even if the tree was chopped.  The other two in my threesome were bombers and had to take the same line as myself ( a medium length driver of the ball).  I like it and think it adds to the hole.  

I am not a lover of trees but i think this one influences play in a positive way.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2005, 11:04:59 PM by RE Blanks »
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Jay Cox

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2005, 11:05:25 PM »
If you take down the tree, it's just another cape hole -- perhaps a very good hole, perhaps a good complement to the rest of the holes on the course, but just another cape hole nonetheless.

If you keep the tree, the hole is something unique to GCA.

As a member, I might want the tree gone.  As someone who will never play the course more than a handful of times, and will play a bunch of other courses with cape holes, I want the tree there.
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RE Blanks

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2005, 11:09:55 PM »
Is the new tee in place on 13?  If I recall this is a blind tee shot.  Was this the new tee??  If so, was the original tee a blind tee shot also?
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CHrisB

Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2005, 11:25:27 PM »
I love the 2nd at HH, and I really like the tree because I think it adds another dimension to the strategy of that type of hole. Lawrence described it well--unless the tee is all the way back, you can go left, right or over the tree but you have to execute the right type of shot for what you choose to do. From all the way back, the option of going left is taken away (if I remember right), so that's not ideal, but you still have the option of taking the riskier shot to gain the advantage off the tee.

In my opinion, if the tree were taken away, the hole would be too easy. There really is a lot of fairway to hit up there. Maybe if the grass on the bank (left) was cut as fairway instead of rough, then the challenge would be retained. Short of that, I say leave the tree.
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Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2005, 11:46:49 PM »
Rev up 'Lightning' .......



BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.



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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2005, 11:48:00 PM »
On second thought, can we transplant that Elm in my front yard?


Dutch Elm disease claimed two there a few years ago.

If this one were clean, we could sure use one there...............


 ;) ;) ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

James Bennett

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2005, 12:00:02 AM »
Any comments on how the tree impacts on play over the last 5 years (ie post-ProVI and the latest era of titanium launch angle technology).  

My experience is that today, even the tallest of trees can be carried by the stronger players, unless the trees are at the absolute end of the shot point.  The quick elevation of the modern driver with the low spin ball and the altered flight path has had a dramatic reduction in impact of these 'hazards in the air'.

Are there any useful strategies for retaining the effectiveness of these 'hazards'.
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Paul Richards

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2005, 12:07:37 AM »
James

>even the tallest of trees can be carried by the stronger players, unless the trees are at the absolute end of the shot point


You make a great point.


And that was exactly what I was alluding to earlier in this thread.


Technology has changed the game, even against 'vertical hazards' as this tree may be defined.



How to combat this trend????







 ???
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

James Bennett

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2005, 12:47:18 AM »
Paul

I find the trees may actually be more difficult to carry with the mid and short irons than they used to, because of the low ball-flight from the lofted clubs, but the reverse is true for the rest of the clubs, particularly the driver.

Trees had a strong strategic element for all grades of golfer with the old balata-type climbing flight.  This was particularly the case where play was into the prevailing wind.  The stronger player might face a particular tree whilst the ball is on the climb, whilst the lesser player faced the same tree on the way down.  They were a multi-faceted hazard, unlike bunkers.  The current version of technology has removed one of those facets (ie in many situations, the loss of a hazard against the stronger player, whilst remaining a hazard for the weaker player).

At what distance is the tree at HH#2, from the tips and from the member tees.  How does this play for the strong, the average and the least-strong?
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Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Sam Sikes

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2005, 02:00:28 AM »
I have played Holston many times, and I think the tree is a little out of place.  Then again I think the equipment has afforded good golfers a reason to criticize the location of the tree because it certainly hinders an agressive line with the driver these days.  

My general concern is the height of the tree.  You REALLY have to hit it high to get over that tree.  Certainly the tree has not always been the same height, so what was it like before.  Is that the second, third, or fourth tree to be in that same location?  Or has it been there since 1928?

Personally I don't think anything would be lost if the tree were lost considering the angle of the fairway and the placement of the bunkers.  Did Ross really envision the hole looking like that 75 years later?  I have to think not. ::)  

Also, what about the girth of the tree.  I have to think they are managing the diameter the branches occupy.  
« Last Edit: April 27, 2005, 02:02:25 AM by Sam Sikes »
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john_stiles

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Re:Holston Hills #2 The Cape hole
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2005, 09:15:46 AM »
Lawrence,

More trees have been removed since January 2005 at this 1927 course.

The large tulip poplar remains at #2 and was very large in the 1930s based on oblique aerial in the clubhouse.  It was one of two trees on Ross' field sketches for the entire course.   The tree is probably 100 yards from the back tee, more from the rear of the back tee.   Ran's photo does not appear to be from the back tee.   The tree only affects those players who cannot launch a towering drive over the tree using today's B&I.  :),  or have a dependable fade with driver.  In my Saturday game, we have one who hits over the tree.  Not sure what his plan is for the tourney.

Many play a draw around the tree. With any wind from the west, into your face,  almost all would play around the tree.

A few trees were cleared in and around #2 and #6 greens and elsewhere.  Also, the 15th is a wonderful plateau green which is now better seen with removal of an elm,  previously behind the green.   Pines to the left, but well past the 15th green, still somewhat clutter the view of a great plateau hole. Those are scheduled to come down at some time.

Tee work has not 'really' started at the 13th.

I have the course plan and Ross' hole sketches scanned.  Send an IM and I will forward any/all sketches.
 
As of last Sunday,  Danny Green is entered in tourney and Stewart Smith is not.
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