News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« on: April 18, 2005, 09:05:24 PM »
...under Pete Dye in Architecture Timeline and In My Opinion.

For those of you that missed the GCA.com gathering in March, Bryan’s piece succinctly describes what you missed – and why you should most certainly go in the future.

As Bryan’s 24 plus photos indicate, the course is totally unlike the torture tracks more closely associated with the  name ‘Dye’. With plenty of latitude tee to green for the resort player, the tiger will nonetheless find that the combination of wind and tricky green complexes demand his best iron play. Full of charm and reflective of its idyllic ocean side setting, Teeth of the Dog has stood the test of time as well as any course that Dye ever built - surely that counts for something??? Without doubt, I put it with The Golf Club and The Ocean Course at Kiawah as being his three best designs.

The fact that Dye conceived this design during such a dreary time in golf course architecture is also darn impressive. The simplicity of the course tee to green certainly stands in stark contrast with the land moving excercise that we saw at Dye Fore.

After playing Dye Fore, and despite what Dye says in his brief  ::) interview on this site, he no longer builds course like the great Teeth of the Dog  :'(.

Cheers,

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2005, 09:11:05 PM »
The Teeth of the Dog is Pete Dye's best design, to date.  

After that, I would personally rank Whistling Straits.

Anyone who hasn't ventured to the Dominican Republic to see this spectacular course should put this trip on their radar.

It is an amazing place - with prehistoric bugs to boot!

Cheers!!!
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2005, 09:20:19 PM »
Brian, Thanks for that nice write-up. Each day passes and I still think about her. She was so subtle, so in your face "here it is".

While she's still fresh in my mind, I'd like to discuss a few of your conclusions about her. Specifically, the strategic elements that you highlighted in your piece. I'm not convinced they are as much strategic  as they are the secrets to her.
I'll try to illustrate.

You state early on ...
Quote
Like some of Dye’s early work, the course presents a risk/reward approach to course architecture: the more you gamble with a hazard, especially on the ocean holes, off the tee, the easier the second shot.

My impressions were more of a penal school design. After all, most of the hazards are on the sides, with little in the way of centerline obstacles to overcome.

We were trying to find the advantages that hugging the sea wall offered on # 6, but, because of where the green was placed, there was no angle or distance advantage given.

As opposed to #8, where the left side of the fairway was much more level, than the right side, and from that left side you do have a view of the green. Just to prove there were some elements I thought strategic, The left fronting bunker on #8 is on the line of charm to any left pin position.

I'll start there, see how well you recieve my comments. Hopefully as intended.

Paul, Having not been to the Straits course, I only have my fond memories of the River-valley course to keep me warm. Truthfully, I found Pete's best work in a natural setting to be the stretch of holes on the valley nine. Starting on what is now the Meaow-valleys 12th hole.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2005, 12:46:50 PM »
Brian- Just to keep this lively discussion going, I was also struck by this remark...

Quote
The fourth hole is probably the least interesting on the course, although for the first time the sea is in view behind and to the right of the green.


The left side of this entire hole is fascinating, (although I only saw it up close after approach), It's a very narrow left side, which appeared to be more like OB as any ball headed there was very difficult to find in all the foilage. The right green side, with it's angular drop into the bunker reminded me that Pete was truely influenced by the likes of Langford.
What is also interesting about that right green side feature shape is that that style of feature shaping was repeated by Pete on most of the designs I can think of that I have golfed. Almost a tell tale sign, like a signature. I find that very interesting.


Chris_Clouser

Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2005, 01:54:33 PM »
After looking at this I am pretty much confused.  I read and hear all of these people rave and heap praise on Dye for this wonderful design at Teeth of the Dog.  

Let's take the beautiful holes that reside on the ocean out of the picture.  That's about half of the course.  What does the rest of the course offer up?  I know pictures can't tell you the whole story, but what makes the rest of the course beyond criticism.  From what I saw in the photos, the course was about as flat as anything here in Indiana could possibly be.  And as for the design, there are holes about a mile east of my office on Sahm Golf Course that Dye did thirty years ago that appear to be just as good.  Now that I think about it, the dreaded layout at Plum Creek might give this thing a run for its money.  

Pebble Beach at least has some holes of interest away from the ocean but gets raked over the coals continually by people saying it is only a great course because it is near the ocean. But what does TOTD have?  From what I saw not much. :(

I'm sure I'll get booed out of the DG for thinking this, but oh well.

Just wanted to add that my comments have nothing to do with the piece by Bryan which was well done and enjoyable.  They just deal with the course itself.


« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 01:55:59 PM by Chris_Clouser »

Jim_Coleman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2005, 02:01:55 PM »
   Brian:
      Thanks for the well thought out write up of TOD.  As one who's lucky enough to spend 10 weeks a year there (and so is admittedly quite biased) I believe if TOD were in Cal. and Pebble Beach were in the DR, TOD would be rated top 10 in the world.  But for Pebble's #8 (maybe the best par four in the world), I'll take TOD in a hole for hole matchup and give Pebble a two up lead.  
   As for the par threes -  #5 beats #7; #16 beats #17; #8 kills #6; #13 kills #12.  Pebble wins the par 5's because TOD can't compete with #18 or 6; but the other two are a push; as for the 4's, Pebble's #8 beats TOD's #6; Pebble's 9 #10 push with TOD's 8 and 17 (although I think 8 is pretty cool); TOD's 15 beats Pebble's 16; TOD's 12 beats Pebble's #3; TOD's #2 beats Pebble's #3; TOD's 18 beats #15; etc., etc.
     By the way, my three bedroom villa is available to rent for about half what the hotel would charge.  Feel free to e-mail me.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2005, 02:05:42 PM »
Hmm..

Sad to hear that Dye Fore is much ado about nada.

I wonder why Pete Dye's most recent works generally have him doing a bad parody of his style?  

Has he become so enamored with trying to build courses to test the professional that he's forgotten the rest of us?

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 02:36:14 PM »
Adam,

Not sure about you're opening paragraph, "so subtle, so in your face".  If you mean it is both subtle and in your face I would agree - the green complexes are ever so subtle while the ocean on seven holes is certainly in your face.  And, I agree that the course for the most part is out in front of you, you can see the holes, no blind shots, and the hazards are in plain view on most holes.

There is certainly a penal design aspect to the course - especially the par 3 fifth, seventh and sixteenth.  If you don't hit the intended shot you're looking at a penalty of some sort.  I wouldn't consider the rest of the holes penal though, there is generally adequate room off the tee and wayward shots are not severely punished unless you get significantly off line (the drive on #2 being an exception).

But, then again I think there is a strategic design aspect to the course as well.  Although there are no centreline hazards there are preferred lines of attack on most holes and there are hazards near those lines if you cut it too fine.

I think there is a heroic design element to the course as well, the aforementioned par 3's are heroic, make the shot or dye a watery death.  The second shot on 14 can be a heroic shot too.  All in all I think it has many design elements that are nicely blended to give a memorable golf experience.

One of my measures of a course is how many of the holes can I remember a few weeks or months after playing the course.  At TOTD I could remember them all.

Re: your comment on #6 "We were trying to find the advantages that hugging the sea wall offered on # 6, but, because of where the green was placed, there was no angle or distance advantage given."  I've played the hole maybe 15 times;it is the long par 4 for the front nine, so length is one of its greatest defences.  The best way to defeat the distance is to cut off the corner. The first time I played it, the line seemed to me to be over the small section of rock retaining wall.  It seemed to provide the shortest route to the green and the line suggested risk/reward.  Sadly, there is no way for mere mortals to carry it that far.  Subsequent times, I bailed to the right up the hill, only to find a sidehill lie and a long iron or fairway wood to the green.  Most recently, having developed a draw/hook I aim over the trap and try to hit a sweeping hook to cut a bit of the corner and take advantage of the tilt of the fairway.  That shot lead to a 5 iron second - much preferable to a fairway wood.  The lie is also flatter, and the green-side bunker is not really too tight to the green on that side.  So, I still think a line down the left side provides some advantage over anywhere on the right - but beware biting off to much or over-cooking the hook.

On #8, I agree it is strategic and the left side is better.  As an alternate line, the right side is not bad either if you keep inside the fairway traps.  It provides an angle of attack on the second shot that allows you to avoid the bunker in front of the green.  To amplify on the strategy of the hole further, you could try to play the second from the left side, not directly at the pin, but toward the palms that appear well to the right of the green.  The slope will run the ball down to the green and take the front left bunker out of play (unless, of course you come up short).

In the end it is pleasant to contemplate the many joys of the TOTD, especially as I head out for a game here where it's at least 45* now.  At least the rain has stopped.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2005, 02:37:40 PM »
Chris- Don't worry about being booed, this is food for discussion.

I'm going to take a page out of barney's book and state:

Tom Doak raves about TOD. So I believe it's hard for many to try to take-on the Ithaca grad. I asked him for some clarification to his staement that TOD is Pete's best but have yet to get a response.

Will Ellender also refused a follow-up request to his loving comment made to me a few weeks back, after we returned, and after I said I didn't find the penal design to be so strategic. Either that, or he really like the new GD rankings?? ;)

Mike C- Dye Fore had bigger terrain movement which created creative shot opportunities, and, appeared to have alot more earth moving than it's handmade neighbor. I enjoyed many of the blind shots, and the openness of the course.  Some of the superfulous mounding was likely a major detracter for some of the more sophisticated architectural critics. 99% of golfers would probably rave about it. The courses front has wide open views of the ocean, while the back was built closer to a large river gorge.


We also saw a new course under consruction next to Fore.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 02:40:47 PM by Adam Clayman »

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2005, 02:49:30 PM »
Adam,

Re: #4, without getting into the rating debacle/debate, there always is going to be a hole on a course that you like less than others, and ones you like better than others.  I didn't mean that #4 was a bad hole - merely that I found it less interesting than the others.  I love #3, and the look of #4 off the tee was bland to me after that.

Especially, the driving area seems ill defined apart from the long fairway trap on the right - the difference between fairway grass and rough grass is not so easy to see off the tee.  The green complex, as you've described it, is indeed a fine complex.  It is certainly a deadly green to hit if approached from the right rough where most people bail out.

The left side of the fairway was indistinct rough (leading up to some pretty nice haciendas) to me when I've played there -generally Dec to Mar.  On the fairway it didn't look too tight to the OB on the left to me. But then from the tees I was playing there reall was much opportunity to aim left because of an overhanging palm just off the tee.  Left of the green was hardpan, cart path and OB reasonably close to in play.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2005, 03:02:51 PM »
Chris, if you took the best 7 holes off any course, it might not look like top 100 material any more.  What's the point?  The best courses are the best, in large partl because of the land they lie on - especially the more classic courses.  Would Royal Dornoch or TOC be as good if they weren't by the sea on linksland?  

There is elevation change at TOTD - maybe 30 to 50 feet.  It is by no means a flat course.

All of the inland holes have merit in my view.  The green complexes on the inland holes are excellently done, and there are strategic and penal aspect to most of them.


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2005, 05:32:18 PM »
Overall the course was excellent.  So worth the trip.

The 4th.
I saw it as a missed opportunity for a fine short par 4.
The palm trees on the right were distracting and blocked the view of the ocean.
I'd replace the right fairway bunker with a cross bunker complex, allowing for the short hitter to play to the right, into some small swales.  They would have had a tougher approach to the angled green.
The longer player could have carried the bunker, to a much smaller target, and had a safer play to the nice green.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2005, 08:10:03 PM »
Adam,
I didn't mean to duck your question at all. I will admit a Dye bias, his courses appeal to my eye and game. I found TOD to be the best of his works I've experienced (still need to see The Golf Club and Pete Dye). I find TOD to be very strategic and as you mentioned very penalizing as well. IMHO it might be the most well thought out course I've played.
I'm really surprized you didn't like it more, perhaps Dewar's company tainted the trip.
W

Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bryan Izatt's Review of Teeth of the Dog is posted...
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2005, 10:16:03 PM »
Bryan,
I really like your thoughts and agree with a lot of what you have to say.

I think six does have strategy, in any sort of wind even a good drive out to the right left far too long an approach. Sure it was open on the right side, but that did not mean you could get there.

As for eight, with the new green, I think the right side takes the hazard out of play and affords the hook lie to feed the ball in.

Will,
That would have been impossible, my company was only heightened by the Presidente, which I consumed...

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back