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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2005, 06:47:16 AM »
DMoriarty,

Applebrook's waterfall received mild comments, especially when compared to # 17 at Shadow Creek, # 17 at Trump National, # 13 at Trump's Westchester course.

Stone Eagles is barely commented on.

Tom Doak has responded about his waterfall, and all others and I'll venture to guess that few will criticize his work with the same fervor that they criticized Fazio's work.

Being able to walk under it versus viewing it have no bearing on its relevance.

And, you have to view the features in the context of their environment.   There's Las Vegas and then there's the rest of the world.

T_MacWood

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2005, 06:49:32 AM »
There appears to be a formula at work. The turn of the man-made creek looks very similar to turn in the creek at one of the holes at Shadow Creek.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2005, 06:49:53 AM »
Forgot to mention that the walk-under water feature has already been built at several of those excessive Japanese courses which were built in the early 1990's.

To the best of my knowledge no one votes for any of them as one of the best courses in the world.

ForkaB

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2005, 07:16:33 AM »
Tom D

Inspired by the photo accompanying Tom MacWood's post above, might not the "walk on water" hole be the one needed to get any new course into any "100 Greatest" list?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2005, 07:30:25 AM »
Tom MacWood,

You'll find a blatant duplication on Fazio's creeks.

They all flow from high to low elevations

If that isn't formulaic I don't know what is.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2005, 07:46:17 AM »
You'll find a blatant duplication on Fazio's creeks.

They all flow from high to low elevations

Are you certain of that?

After all, as you yourself said: "There's Las Vegas and then there's the rest of the world."

Uphill-flowing streams could be the architect's ultimate tool of deception! And where better to do it than Vegas?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2005, 08:07:39 AM »
WOw!!!!!!!  Waterfalls are now in!!!!!!!!!

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

T_MacWood

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2005, 08:35:25 AM »




I love how the two creeks protrude into the fairway...a very stiking loop like affect in our field view...I believe it is known as the Sigfried and Roy Affect, and can be found on all Fazio courses in Vegas.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 08:37:26 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2005, 11:49:10 AM »
I hate to admit it but I look forward to seeing this course.  I have fond memories of Desert Inn and want to see what was birthed on top of it.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2005, 12:42:50 PM »
Quote
...he told me I would be really pleased with it, that they made it look about as natural as you could for water in the desert.

Quote
You're welcome to bash the waterfall all you want, of course, but I don't really see the point.  Features like this really don't have much to do with the quality of the golf, pro or con ... so the only reason to rip them is if someone thinks they are actually an important feature.  In the case of Stone Eagle, the water feature isn't even the main feature of the fourth or fifth holes.  The ravines and the rock outcroppings are the feature.

Tom D., is it just me, or are you starting to sound totally commercial, brand architect oriented, and server to the mega developer-mega project bombastic designer who wants to be the Tom Fazio of the 21rst century?  If that is your goal, just say so.

How about looking at the first quote and change it around a little.  Say;  ...he told me I would be really pleased with it, (planting 10000 sugar maple trees to border the fairways of Barnbougle and Pac Dunes), that they made it look about as natural as you could for water (autumnal and seasonal Vermont) in the desert (barren coastal dunesland).

My point is that you are contradicting yourself.  Why would you want to make a fantasy, artificial waterfall feature in the desert if only for expensive eye candy and gimmick?  It ain't natural, minimal, nor logical!  How does it serve to advance golf course design?

Second quote: Thanks for giving permission to bash the waterfall all I want, I think I will do so some more.  My point is along the same lines as Ron Whitten made in his article.

Quote
...While he was designing Dallas National, Fazio told an assembled group of founding members, "Whatever your expectations are, we'll exceed them." That's an unreasonable goal, particularly when you're spending other people's money achieving it, and ultimately an unhealthy one if we want to keep golf from becoming a game for the elite few.

With prices still rising and participation still dropping each year, I wish Fazio (and the rest of us in golf, including this magazine and our America's 100 Greatest survey) would be a little less pretty and a little more practical. This is vital if we expect the game of golf to remain viable as a pastime, not just for this generation, but for generations to come.

Tom D., when you say above that the water feature "isn't even the main feature of the fouth and fifth hole.."  I can only conclude it is superficial and expensive.  While your clients at Stne Eagle may have given a large budget and decided they want this, it only raises expectations that it is almost natural and normal to want waterfall and babbling brook features where none exist in nature, and it becomes conventional wisdom or keeping up with Jones' mentality that new courses must obligatorily have them.  Thus, the 6 digit membership fees, and 3 digit green fees that Ron Whitten speaks of are the only future that developers can fathom.  The obligatory water fall or feature is just another freaking ho-hum feature, nothing to do with golf, everything to do with branding the designer- raising the design construction bar.  Why not incorporate water features like babling brooks, water courses or falls, only when they exist in nature.  Allow them to be RARE, and thus appreciated, not expected for your $300 green fee or $150K membership.


I'm sorry to say, that reading Ron Whitten's article, in many cases, arguments, and comments RW makes about Tom (Fazio), one might substitute (Doak), where TD's thoughts seem to be trending as I have interpreted them recently.  

Would Tom Doak have made these observations quoted above in 1995?  Tom, are you evolving or succumbing to the lure of mega developer-project expectations?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

henrye

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2005, 01:06:41 PM »
Tommy, thanks for the photos.  I, for one, still find it amazing that they can build a course like that in the desert.  I hate to think of the cost.  Are you affiliated in any way with Wynn?

I don't think that the similarities to Shadow Creek should be a negative.  They clearly had a winner there, and it's the same architect.  The description of the waterfall, however, does sound a bit outlandish.

As for Tom Doak's comment - "Features like this really don't have much to do with the quality of the golf, pro or con ... so the only reason to rip them is if someone thinks they are actually an important feature." - I think it's a cop out.  Waterfalls are built, whether tastefully integrated or not, to impact the visual experience of the golfer.  They are built as important features - to be noticed by golfers playing a course.  

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2005, 01:53:41 PM »
Hopefullly, the following comments are more or less correct.

I visited the Stone Eagle construction site this winter once, and spent two or three hours up there.

Based on my short visit, the irrigation pond is located in the most logical place, a wide spot in a small canyon where the water collects and flows.  In general, the course site is a mountain slope where the whole course and slope can be seen from the bottom of the slope.  You've got to put the pond somewhere, and I doubt it could have been placed out of sight, even if they wanted to.

Above the pond, the wash is narrow, and already populated with large brown stones.  I don't see what the big deal with putting a nice water feature in there, and circulating the water a bit.  It is a partially manufactured feature, and will have zero impact on one's score.

I really don't know the evolution of the Stone Eagle lake/waterfall, and whether the club or the architect wanted it that way.  It will look nice, but will be far from the dominant feature of attraction there.

However, this post is more about whether it is hypocritical to attack Tom Fazio for his excesses.


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2005, 02:03:50 PM »
Building a golf course of any kind anywhere NEAR Las Vegas or in ANY desert can't be considered natural in any way. How's your game playing from rocks?

You can take arguments for naturalistic golf course architecture too far. If an architect (or developer) chooses to make an artificial, manufactured-looking course on a stretch of seaside linksland, then there's plenty of room for criticism. But if you're building in a desert then by definition the golf course is going to appear artificial, because it IS artificial. In that case, how does the addition of a waterfall seem over the top?

And since we're talking Vegas, howzabout slot machines at the turn and dancing-girl caddies?

Sounds perfectly natural to me.

"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2005, 06:20:52 PM »
Quote
Are you affiliated in any way with Wynn?
Henry, I serve as Mr. Wynn's Financial Advisor! :)

(A horrible joke)

I've seen parts of the course in person, but I did not take these images.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2005, 07:53:04 PM »
RJ:

You have your own formula of what a great course is, that a great course cannot possibly include a waterfall.  That's your right of course.

Personally, I would not have spent the money to do the water feature at Stone Eagle, and I told my clients as much.  They really wanted one, so I could have done two things:

a)  quit the job on principle, even though I was already under contract, or

b)  tried to make the feature as natural as possible, and something which does not undermine the quality of those two holes.

I chose b.  If you want to call that selling out, that's your opinion.  But I can tell you I didn't take this job for the money ... I took it because I thought it could be a really good and unique golf course, and because I thought it was something we would enjoy doing.  Waterfall or not, I think it will be a success on both those points.

Plenty of people will dislike Stone Eagle because it's not a "minimalist" site, it couldn't be a "classic style" golf course, and despite our best efforts it will be fairly difficult to walk.  Just as The Rawls Course showed we could do something really different with flat ground, Stone Eagle will show that we could do something really different than Tom Fazio with a rocky desert site.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  And it won't affect our ability to do a project like Ballyneal for a low budget in the sand dunes with no water features, when we have a site like that to work with.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2005, 10:05:42 PM »
WOw!!!!!!!  Waterfalls are now in!!!!!!!!!



Sadly, they seem to be. The Trumpster commissioned one, as did Mr Fireman at Liberty National.

I personally find such "water features" kitschy.

But then again, I cannot afford to become a member at either one of these clubs, so my artistic sensitivities will be spared.

Pat_Mucci

Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2005, 11:41:01 PM »
Jeff Fortson,

I had the same thought.

I'm anxious to see how the old Desert Inn course was transformed, as well.

Tom MacWood,

You're right, something about that creek reminds me of # 11 at Merion. ;D


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Wynn Golf Club
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2005, 12:35:37 AM »
Tom, I've been gone all afternoon and evening playing golf in blustery weather and drinking brew whilst munching the traditional Wisconsin fish fry.  I came home to see if my bomb throwing provocatuer efforts could rise to a Barneyism riot of condemnation for me challenging GCA's most favored son, and find it is nearly a fizzle, if not a dud. ::) ;D

As is often the case with we GCA bomb throwers, I haven't seen your Stone Eagle.  I haven't even seen a freakin picture of the joint. All I know is that I hear and read a similar sounding rap in your descriptions of the water feature and the project in general as I hear and read of Fazio press releases of some of his projects, as of lately.

I can appreciate the idea that you need a water retention facility for the desert project.  Perhaps it has a water effluent recycled design - I don't know.  I definitely don't pretend to know the engineering problems and pros and cons of how to create a desert water fall or babbling brook, beyond some superficial lectures I heard the Fazio-Wadsworth group present way back when at Las Vegas, 1992.  All I'm saying is how much is too much in the "expectations" department.  Do the clients expect too much of big name archies (of which you are now in the league) and do you then go with it and raise the bar so high that it becomes conventional standard operating procedure that every new course has to obligatorily have something extravagant in the way of water facilities beyond functional and designed as economical as possible?  Or do you find a way to buck the waterfall fad and hide it, because for one thing it isn't natural to that environment, and in the process save a little $$$ and not feed the beast that has become the fad of having water features in the desert?

As to the Wynn course; are they going to have a Champion's or LPGA event at that site again?  It will be interesting if the bumper guards and player friendly design yields a birdie fest from the really good players; or is it a venue for the whale's ego trips to get them juiced and overconfident to get back to the tables after the round?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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