[Ran Morrissett]

I will forever be shocked that Pat Ward Thomas picked it for his dream eclectic 18 holes. Anybody can make a hole criminally hard by designing a green that won't receive the required shot. What is the big deal with this hole?

[Roger Kelly]

Ran,Watching Greg Norman hit a 5 iron into a hole that is 250 yards in both interesting and different. And into the wind, it is a interesting half par hole, which I know is a type hole you like.Still, though after watching it for two days,  I will concede there are better 16th holes around, starting with down the road at St. Andrews.

[John Morrissett]

Ran--Roger's right -- it's a 3 1/2 par (and what difference does it make what "par" they call it?!?).  I can't help but think a 270 yard version of it would be tremendous fun and would provide some needed variety down the stretch.As for Pat Ward Thomas's selection, I can only guess that he was hell-bent on using 17 at Cypress.  I bet he just wanted to find a way to get Carnoustie in there -- remember that the book was written fresh on the heels of the '75 Open.John

[JNC Lyon]

Another old thread to be bumped up. I wonder why this course gets minimal discussion on here, especially since it appears to have a good variety of holes.

[Tom_Doak]

Was Ran trying to say that the hole is UNFAIR?

Or was he just bummed because he made a 4 and a 5 in two tries?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

The hole is a SOB.

With my weak game, I hit driver from the tee and put it right at the front entrance of the green. I then putted an 8 iron to about 4 foot and missed the putt by a mile and then for good measure, missed the next one too.

And I loved every minute of it....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I actually loved playing the hole. It was either a 3 wood or driver depending on the wind. I hit a 5 wood the last time I was there and played it as a short par 4 and positioned the tee shot for a chip. It is far from the best hole on that course much less the world. I find those lists to be silly. How good a 16th hole it is has not only to do with the hole, but the other holes around it as well. It is a good 16th hole when you see how it fits into the routing and flow of holes and shot making requirements. I can think of 5 or 6 better golf holes on that course. 1, 5, 7,  9, 13, 14 and 18 without thinking hard.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am not a fan of Carnoustie.  That being said the last three holes are the best finishing holes in championship golf. I agree that the green is difficult to hit but bunkers are some of the most  benign on the course and par is possible from off the green if your short game is any good.  I am not sure that hitting the green is supposed to be possible all the time.  There is more to making par than two putts.  

Seventeen is one of the great par fours in golf with a premium on the drive and the second shot (third shot, fourth shot).  It also gives many options both off the tee and second shot.  I would like to see 18 as a par five again.  I wonder how Van deVelde would have played the hole then?

[Gary_Nelson]

My memory is fuzzy but I seem to remember liking this hole... even with my bogey.

It certainly brought in the element of luck and chance to land a ball on the green.

What's not to like about forcing players to accept the rub of the green?   I suppose that "PAR" wasn't such an important factor when this hole was built.

[Doug Siebert]

I guess I don't see what Ran was talking about when he said the green wouldn't receive the required shot?  Surely he wasn't claiming it was too firm and you couldn't land the ball on it and hold it??  There is ample room and land in front well suited to playing a run up, particularly with a draw which would make sense considering its length and the era in which it was designed.  It may be a hard hole but its difficult to argue against that in a forum where most of us love the concept of half par holes.

This hole is one of my all-time favorites but its possible I may be biased as my lifetime scoring average on it is 1.5

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is a very small opening in front for a wood.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Was it Tom Watson who went bogey, bogey, bogey, bogey on the 16th while winning his Open Championship at Carnoustie?

Well, this 15-handicapper walked away with a par and a big grin:)

Landed my tee ball short of the green, chipped up to 5 feet, made the putt.

The 2007 Open will take place there again.

[PThomas]

Voytek -- I think you are almost correct...I believe Watson also bogeyed it in the playoff round too

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