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Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2005, 06:20:41 AM »
...it would effectively render every single golf ball out there and on the market today "non-conforming".

And to replace all the "non-conforming" balls in the world today is not exactly something they can ask the manufacturers to do tomorrow!    ;)


Actually, the manufacturers would love that. Billions and billions of new balls to sell.

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

TEPaul

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2005, 06:29:30 AM »
"Actually, the manufacturers would love that. Billions and billions of new balls to sell."

Neil:

There's no question of that at all---none! And that's one of the best points imaginable that the regulatory bodies can use to persuade the manufacturers!

But you know as well as I do what the flip-side of that coin is! The manufacturers will understand that that will effect their ability to continue to dupe the golfing public into thinking that their golf ball goes farther than someone else's golf ball---and believe me that's no small perception to them!

I guess the USGA could say;

"Basically, that's crap--because no golf ball can go farther than X now with our new ODS standard without us deeming it "non conforming"!  

But somehow I doubt the USGA ever would say that---at least not publcily!   ;)

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2005, 06:37:32 AM »

I think the real problem for some of us today is that the USGA probably won't even try to write new I&B and ODS standards in any attempt to rollback the distance the golf ball goes. What they probably will do, though, and frankly if you look carefully at what they're quietly doing right now, is putting into place the legal, testing, and understandable rules and regs that will hopefully hold distance right about where it is now!

That'll probably frustrate and piss off a lot of people on here but it looks to me like that's precisely what they're positioning themselves to do and that's all they're planning on doing with distance.

You may be right, but they would be wrong. An ODS designed to "hopefully hold distance right about where it is now" will fail. The R&D scientists know more and will learn more than any current expert group that the USGA may designate. Unless, of course, the ODS is a simple statement like "No ball shall fly more than 250 yards if Tom Paul hits it."

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2005, 06:44:26 AM »

The manufacturers will understand that that will effect their ability to continue to dupe the golfing public into thinking that their golf ball goes farther than someone else's golf ball---and believe me that's no small perception to them!



But, since they're going to "dupe the golfing public", why do impossibilities matter ?  All balls will be equal. Some will be more equal.  ;)

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

TEPaul

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2005, 06:45:27 AM »
Neil:

I think this has been a good discussion because it's based on the real world.

But I can guarantee you in the next 24 hours there will be a whole bunch of contributors on here who will continue to say they should just "do it" right now and not worry about any consequences. Pat Mucci will be back on saying they're just a bunch of weak pussies and they don't even recognize there is a problem.

I think they recognize there's a problem but it just ain't an easy thing to fix. It wasn't easy 75 years ago, 50 years ago, 25 years ago, or now.

Did they get out-foxed by the manufacturers within their own ODS rules and regs in the last ten years? You bet they did---about three ways----COR, the new combined ball, and optimization!

The best they can do now is ramp up their rules and regs and testing procedures and just hope they have what it takes to catch whatever comes down the technological pipeline in the future from the manufacturers that looks like it conforms to their ODS standard and tests but doesn't, like what happened in the last ten years---before these balls and equipment get past them and out to the public. And let's hope, this time the boards of the USGA and R&A listen carefully to what the tech department is telling them and vote the way the tech department recommends they do!   ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 06:48:36 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2005, 06:54:26 AM »
"But, since they're going to "dupe the golfing public", why do impossibilities matter ?  All balls will be equal. Some will be more equal."

Neil:

Right! No one needs to restrain the manufacturer's ability to dupe the golfing public. We live in a free, democratic, capitalistic society and the hallmark of that great utopia is---"a sucker is born every minute"!

On the manufacturer's ability to continue to dupe even in the face of a rock solid ball standard, I'd simply use Lincoln's great quotation;

"You can fool some of the people all the time, some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all the people all the time!"

Let the golfing public buy the manufacturer's BS if they want to---it's their choice, as it's always been.  

TEPaul

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2005, 07:08:01 AM »
JESII asked:

"Is the USGA prepared to assume the financial burden inherent in todays legal environment considering who these top ball manufacturer's are? I suspect it was less so when the standardization of balls came into effect."

Sully:

You bet they are. About ten years ago the USGA was a bit light on money but into their midst (the Board of the USGA) entered one Eric Gleagher, one of Wall Street's go-go M&A and top investment guys! The markets were ripe for clever investment and profit back then and basically Eric got them something to the tune of $100 mil maybe even half again that much more! And then, apparently Eric picked up the Russian Tea Room in NYC in a sort of quick "as is" deal that may've been a bit light on "due diligence" regarding what it would actually take to get their "collections" from Far Hills into NYC past all the red tape of NY and NYC. That back-fired, they pulled back from NYC, didn't renominate Eric, precipitating a really unfortunate departure from the board of one Jack Vardamann, DC lawyer who probably really had a chance to do something with these manufacturers from his expected position as the chairman of the USGA's I&B committee.

The whole thing was really unfortunate, in my opinion, because Gleacher and Vardamann are heavy-weights---they both had the ability to get things done---but that's life, I guess! I wish it hadn't have happened that way though. IM me if and when you read this---I might consider deleting it!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 07:10:21 AM by TEPaul »

Pat_Mucci

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2005, 11:24:52 AM »
TEPaul,

I'd agree that the concept of voluntary compliance seems palatable, but, if you're playing in a USGA sanctioned event, or an event that adopts the USGA rules, that compliance is no longer voluntary.

But, that's been the case for ages.

Non-conforming equipment has been around for a long, long time and continues to be used by golfers.

While I understand the environment is different today, was there any litigation when the R&A ball was conformed to the USGA ball ?

If the USGA reduced the weight of the ball would the manufacturers file suit ?
If the USGA increased the diameter of the ball to 1.685 would the manufacturers file suit ?

If the USGA feels that the ball should have new performance qualities, new design standards, why do you feel that the manufacturers will file suit ?

TEPaul

Re:WWDRS = What would Donald Ross Say ?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2005, 11:53:05 AM »
Patrick:

As far as the manufacturers filing suit if the USGA rewrote the USGA I&B and ODS rules and regs and changed the standards, I believe I covered all that in detail in the posts above. Do you understand what their "notice and comment" period is and what it means and what giving the manufacturers the time to conform to new rules and regs means?

So why doesn't the USGA go ahead and rewrite the I&B rules and regs and the ODS standards and roll back the distance the ball goes to some former time--maybe 1975, or 1950 or even 1925?

That's a good question, isn't it? One reason just may be becasue if they did that they'd effectively render everything out there in the hands and in the bags of golfers "non-conforming".

Another reason is obviously that would make them look like they made mistakes along the way and they probably can't take that perception.

And another reason just may be, that despite what you say about them ruining the game and being ineffectual pussies and such just maybe they feel the golfing public really doesn't want them to do it! Did you ever try looking at it that way? Did you ever stop to think that just maybe the things you think, the golfing public doesn't agree with?

Voluntary compliance is what its all about though, and hopefully the golfing public will tell us all what they want.

I've said for years now I think the USGA still has the power and the respect in I&B to just go super public, and do it by bringing all the entities together and saying to the world  (hopefully with the R&A if they'd ever wake up) something like:

"We've brought golf in rules and rules and regs this far and its worked pretty well, and now we believe that for various reasons, partly of our own doing, that distance in golf has gone too far, that now it's basically obsoleted too many of our playing fields that are the essence of the game, so here's what we recommend be done. Please go along with us as you always have in the past."

That's redefining their basic mission, something I believe they desperately need to do right now, and I think it would work if they do that now and do it right and do it massively publicly. If the manufacturers just say no, I think that'll make them look like "black hats" like greedy business exploiters who don't have the long term survival of the game at heart.

The regulatory bodies and the manufacturers are basically vying for the golfers out there and which way they want to go. Who's gonna persuade and convince them, who's gonna get them to choose the way it will be? If they stick with the USGA's rewritten I&B and ODS standards it will be the USGA/R&A but if they go with the manufacturers, amateur golf and golf as we've known it will really change, the USGA/R&A in I&B will be irrelevant, just like tennis's old USLTA is basically now irrelevent in tennis and as far as distance goes in the future the sky will be the limit---who will be there to even try to stop it? The manufacturers? Of course not, that would be dreaming and a total joke!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2005, 11:58:30 AM by TEPaul »

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