[Slag Bandoon]

 In "Golf Course Design" by Graves and Cornish, on page 288 there is a statement that at first offended me and my hack sensibilities, then I settled down and looked at it as an objective tidbit of knowledge but...I'm still a little askew with my comprehension.

 Re: Fairway grasses in cooler zones, "...For those that require the most dense, closely cut turf, bentgrass is the choice.  On the other hand, for public courses or other facilities where most golfers are less skilled, Kentucky Bluegrass or perennial ryegrass may be preferable."  

I thought Pebble Beach used perennial ryegrass.  Are its patrons all hacks?  

  Bluegrass and ryegrass are generally cut higher than bentgrass so does this add to the Brad Klein handicap of less roll and longer effective courses for the less skilled?  

Are low handicaps really this demanding?  
  

[RJ_Daley]

Norb, I can't read Graves and Cornish's minds, but I think they were also taking into account that the public courses don't traditionally have the high maintenance budgets of the private clubs where the manicured look and tight cut fairways are all the rage, but at a country club sort of price and less rounds played on them.  As you remember, the roll and firmness of K-blue at Wild Horse proves that you can (in the correct soil and growing weather) have highly desirable turf conditions for fairways.  I think the "less skilled" they speak of is sort of a slap at the perception of public golfers, but I've seen plenty of hack-em-ups at private clubs as well.  Fairway turf selection must take into account all the factors, and I don't think K-blue necessarily rules out firm and fast, or desirable lies to use the blades to work a ball from.  Height of cut and density are critical, as well as response to fertility and turf damage recovery. K-blue tends to need a wee bit more shoot height.  But then my skills do fall in the hack category as well... and there might be plenty of "skilled" fellows out there that say no way to K-blue.  

[Doug Siebert]

Courses that have bent grass fairways often seem to advertise the fact.  I don't recall seeing many crowing about their bluegrass or rye grass fairways.

I'm not necessarily always a fan of bent grass fairways because (at least around my neck of the woods) it often seems to go hand in hand with overwatering.  I guess they figure if they are going to brag about their nice fairways they need to make sure they are green.  While its nice for keeping your drives in play, it is annoying that when you miss the fairway by a bit, and are in the thick lush rough on the edges that overwatering creates, if you can't stop the ball on the green you are screwed, because you certainly can't count on the ball to run up if you land it short.

[A_Clay_Man]

Norb- The first time I played Pebble I was unconsciencely "at home" because of the bluegrass. Now if only Al Hurt could've played. And, Didn't you know everyone's sensibilities are askew? goesintight.

Dick- Was the KB at WH just regular old blue? Or was it of a new type of "low Mow" variety, if there is such a thing?

[RJ_Daley]

Adam, we just spoke about that recently where someone identified "dwarf blues" and Josh Mahar from WH piped up that it is one of his pet peaves that they are referred to as "dwarf".  He identified the poly stand of blue cultivars as Award, Midnight, American and some other such k-blue.  He is able to mow it low due to his understanding of the local soil and fertility program needed, in their weather.  It is my observation that around here in WI, the soils tend to be heavy tight clayey loams and where blues are the fairway choice, they take long deep heavy watering and it becomes objectionably soft. But, that can be followed by a period where the ground is allowed to dry and firm up, but too long in that condition makes the roots decline and shoots thin out, and requires higher mowing heights.  I just don't think you can make a blanket statement about the nature of blues like G&W do above.  That puts supers in a bind of wrong expectations.  

[Andy]

I think this is an outdated, or just plain wrong, analysis.  The new ryegrasses of today can be cut as low or lower than bent, are very easy to establish, and can easily be prepared for "fast and firm".  My experiences with bluegrass, however, is that they are never cute quite as low, are more "puffy" and provide for inconsistent bounces on occasion.  I do think bent is a great fairway surface unless you are growing it in a region that requires lots of watering, which creates the mushy stuff none of us want to see.  My personal preference, among all grasses, would be bent and rye as co #1's, with bermuda(tifway II/419) and bluegrass pretty far behind...

[Trapking]

Andy,

You are right about Ryegrass being a good fairway grass that can be maintained as low as bent.  That is why southern courses overseed the dormant bermuda with rye.

It's downfall in the north is it dies every 5th winter or so when maintained at tee or green height.  

Blue is maintained taller but many golfers like to sweep the ball making it popular at public courses with a bigger variety of players making decisions.  Anyone maintaining bluegrass below 3/4" is not going to have bluegrass for long without spending a lot of money on it.

[redanman]

The original fescue at Spanish Bay was a joy, but it wasn't emerald green, soooo.....bye bye.

Anyone else here really love Bermuda grass as a playing surface?  I just love the quirky uneven nature of it, but then again I am a dino-saur traditionalist.  There is a special skill to playig it, but it is near bulletproof in the right climate..

[Harmony]

What would you pros from Dover out there put down on a Georgia clay fairway?  Give your top three, considering a) cost is not a factor; b) watering is a factor; and c) perception and reality of the quality must be primo.
Don't leave out any variety that you have heard does well in the south, just because it might not be common to Ga.
Thanks.
KHassell

[Slag Bandoon]

Courses that have bent grass fairways often seem to advertise the fact.  
I'm not necessarily always a fan of bent grass fairways because it often seems to go hand in hand with overwatering.  

Doug,  Interesting statements.   Nice slant.

Thanks to all for great educational answers.  

Dick, (and Josh) I cannot think of better turf I have ever played on than at Wild Horse.  (Sorry if that sounds like a Gary Player quote.)

Realizing that all grass choices are site specific, I still hope that blanket statements like these aren't actually practiced.

  "I shall study and one day I will be ready"  Abe Lincoln

[ReyRey]

I guess my skill is actually roll'in da grass.

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