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Sean Remington (SBR)

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Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« on: November 24, 2004, 08:48:34 PM »
Anyone ever played this course? I don't think I've ever seen it mentioned here before.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2004, 08:53:01 PM »
I've never heard of it.  Was there a name change involved?

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2004, 08:59:08 PM »
Tom - Not sure. It's listed as being in Wayne, NJ. I did a mapquest and it is definately in North Jersey. I was intrigued when I saw they listed W.T. as the designer.

GeoffreyC

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2004, 09:10:22 PM »
Sean

I played there about a dozen years ago in a MET section MGA tournament. I recall a very rolling property and quite a few blind shots.  The highlight of the course as I recall are the locations of the greensites and the contours of the greens. Putting was quite challenging if I recall correctly.

It is a nice course but I don't think it stands out within its neighborhood that includes some of the great courses in the US.

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2004, 09:15:17 PM »
Geoffrey - If the green sites are still Travis then it sounds like one of his courses I always hear about in the Poconos. Of course I can't recall it now. Anyway, are strong green sites a Travis fingerprint? Is this because he was such a strong player himself? Thanks for the info.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2004, 09:19:45 PM »
Nice clubhouse pic and good history on their website:

www.northjerseycc.com
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

GeoffreyC

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2004, 09:25:10 PM »
Sean

I am hardly an authority on Walter Travis golf courses.  However, I have played Westchester CC quite a bit and the natural settings of the greensites along with a routing that takes good advantage of the rough terrain are highlights of the course.  Round Hill in CT. is another really fine Travis course with similar features.  In the case of Westchester especially and Round Hill, I think there is better use of the property. At North Jersey CC I seem to recall quite a few tee shots over ridges and without the use of angles as at the other courses.  All three have very interesting greens.

Andy Silis

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2004, 10:57:36 AM »
If you go to their website and click on "scorecard" there is a detailed description of every hole with graphic images and 4 pictures from various angles.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2004, 01:56:19 PM »
Sean,

I've played North Jersey for over 40 years.
At one time my father was a member.

A tree planting program, years ago, harmed the golf course.

It is rather unique.  As Geoff said, lot's of blind shots.

It has some good holes and some rather awkward holes due to the severe slope of some hills and/or ridges that run through the property.

I always liked the green complexes and a large mound in the  14th fairway, similar to Quaker Ridge's 8th.

The order of play has been changed on the front 9.

# 1 used to be # 7
# 2 used to be # 8
# 3 used to be # 9
# 4 used to be # 1
# 5 used to be # 2
# 6 used to be # 3
# 7 used to be # 4
# 8 used to be # 5
# 9 used to be # 6

It's about a mile from my home course.  In fact, the aiming point on the tee of our 4th hole used to be the North Jersey clubhouse, but 40+ years of growth can obscure many a feature.

Tom Doak,

There's been no name change that I'm aware of.

Perhaps Craig Disher or Scott could run up some old and current aerials.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2004, 02:11:00 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Matt_Ward

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2004, 02:23:46 PM »
If my memory serves North Jersey CC was at one time called Patterson Golf Club and was one of the original founders of the New Jersey State Golf Association.

Pat and Geoff are quite correct -- there are a number of blind shots throughout the round.

One of the major holes is the unique 2nd -- a long uphill par-4 of 430+ yards is a demanding hole. The green is quite small and fairly deep with a back tier that handles a superb rear pin placement. The long par-4 5th is also a gem of a hole -- as is the par-4 6th which cascades down to full view of the clubhouse. The designer of North Jersey's clubhouse is the same man responsible for the ones at Winged Foot, Ridgewood, Mountain Ridge CC.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the club made a major changed a number of years ago when the short par-4 16th was changed to a much longer par-4. The previous hole had its tee to the left of the par-3 15th -- the new tee is much further back to the right and adds a much more demanding tee shot and approach now.

North Jersey is a rather unique Walter Travis design but I would not it say it's a "must play" given the level of top courses in the Garden State.

Robert Thompson

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2004, 02:47:10 PM »
Ian Andrew is probably one of the authorities on Travis' courses on this site -- having worked on restoring Lookout Point, Cherry Hill, Scranton and a couple of others.
I've never heard Ian mention this one -- but I'd be surprised if he doesn't know of it.
And yes, from what I've seen at Scranton and Lookout, interesting greens were certainly a big part of what Travis, who had a legendary short game, was about as a designer.
The 18th at Scranton is one of the most interesting greens I've ever seen....

Robert
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

ian

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2004, 07:04:39 PM »
Ed Homsey, the founder of the Travis Society played the course and really enjoyed it. There web site is excellent (northjerseycc.com). As Pat said the course has always had the same name. Ed mentioned that many of the tee shots are blind up and over ridges with wonderful second shots after wards. This is very common to Travis's work. Places like Stafford, and Orchard Park have lots of these, particularly on par fives.

I have not played there, so I can not comment on the course. Built in 1922 is about all I can add.











« Last Edit: November 25, 2004, 07:08:18 PM by Ian Andrew »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2004, 09:04:58 PM »
Ian Andrew,

When you're next in the Northern New Jersey area contact me and we'll visit and play North Jersey.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2004, 09:57:40 PM »
After a quick glance, it clearly appears the bunkers have been re-done. North Jersey in the photos does not appear to be an authentic Travis course.

My .02.
jeffmingay.com

ian

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2004, 09:18:43 AM »
Pat,

I will find time to play New Jersey with you next year. They are very receptive to members of the Travis Society.

From your comments, this course is well worth playing. The photos on their web site certainly looked very interesting.

Ian

GeoffreyC

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2004, 10:25:40 AM »
How could I have left CC of Scranton off my discussion of Travis courses (above)?  ::)

It has probably the best greens and greensites of all of them. Some amazing stuff really and Ian is doing a top notch job with the trees, bunkers and green expansions.

corey miller

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2004, 10:43:29 AM »


Ken dye has done the restoration work at both Round Hill and Westchester.  Any comments from those in the know.  

Ian-could you comment on your restoration efforts at Travis courses.  Have been told Westchester was a little difficult because the original had so many bunkers that the membership would not agree to restore.  

The description of the course (NJCC) and the pictures look similar to Round Hill.

ian

Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2004, 02:34:52 PM »
Corey,

Thanks for your interest.

I work with 5 clubs: Lookout Point in Fonthill, Cherry Hill north of Buffalo, Orchard Park south of Buffalo, Stafford CC near Rochester and CC of Scranton in Scranton.

Lookout Point
-the course is largely intact, with two lost holes and 6 rebuilt greens
-the holes are there but will not be brought back (too bad!)
-the bunkers and mounds have been mostly restored back to the original condition.
-fortunately much was intact when I got involved, and they understand the preservation of what they have.
-there is some green recapturing and chipping area recapturing going on currently

Where else can you find a 150 yard hole that favours a bounce in approach. This green is 2,800 sq. ft. even after the green recapturing to the corners.


Cherry Hill
-18 original greens and the routing is completely intact. Property is flat as flat gets.
-we have 18 holes of working drawing available for a restoration (which they are into)
-bunkers are completely different from Travis, lots of work to do
-they will be entirely slit drained before we begin with
-they are taking out about 200-300 large trees to return playability

The first with Robinson bunkering


typical working drawing


Orchard Park
-they removed two holes for a range so the course will never be completely intact
-this club I ended up through Bruce Hepner, it’s a shame he didn’t have the time to continue. His work on current 18 was excellent.
-the priority is to remove the two new holes by a different architect, which are so incredibly out of character, the really hurt the course
-we have just begun with them and are currently creating a master plan
-it will involve major tree removal, restoring the 12th back to a par 5, more green recapturing, chipping areas that run the next tees, returning the Travis bunkers (we have great old aerials)

The origional bunker right of 10, the left side ones are gone.


Stafford
-the routing is mostly intact, with one hole changed from a great short four to a long three, but that’s basically it.
-Most greens are there but all the mounds were completely gone except around the awesome 14th.
We did our best to add mounding to recreate the Travis mounds, but the bunkering has high faces which takes away from the look (club’s insistence- sodding could undue this easily)
-nothing but a few tees and tree removals going on currently
-there is a plan to rebuild the awesome old 18th green back

the only mounding left at Stafford, the amazing par 3 14th


the old 18th from the past with the bathtub green (this will be restored with the green site


the current 18th, by green superintendent, not an inch of fall ;D



the proposed 18th, hopefuly we will get to do this soon, there is an image that gave us the old bunkering, so this is quite accurate


CC of Scranton
-generally the original layout with 15 of 18 original greens
-6,000 trees removed to restore views
-all greens have been recaptured and all chipping areas restored
-the fairways have been widened (but not quite to original width on some holes
-all new tees are built, front and back
-80% of long grasses returned, but still controversial
-creek returned, where it used to be piped
-still to come: major drainage, rebuild 3 greens to original contours (research still on going on two), and finally the most important thing to come is the bunker work

the 10th in front with the 11th to the right. You could not see any hole but the one you were on when I first started with the club. Origionally you could see the entire course from the clubhouse. We are very close.


the 18th green, the best green I have seen by Travis, and why he is so highly regarded.


Corey I'm lucky to spend this much time with Travis, but I have to admit that I still haven't fully figured him out. Hollywood is such a large departure in style, and there are excentricities at each club that suprise me. I need to see Round Hill, I have been told that it is wonderful. I do know that Westchester looks a lot different from when I played it in 1988. I will say this much, I think he is a better architect than most people realize.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2004, 02:42:16 PM by Ian Andrew »

SPDB

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Re:Walter Travis/ North Jersey Country Club
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2004, 03:55:25 PM »
Ian - Similar to Pat's msg re: NJCC, shoot me an IM re: Round Hill. The recent work by Ken Dye, referenced in Corey's post is a hodgepodge of restoration/renovation, some good some bad (and I'm not expressing that respectively).

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