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Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« on: August 17, 2004, 12:19:52 AM »
Without any real planning or forthought I sort of completed a mini tour (orgy) of Davis Love III courses last month. Playing three different DL3 courses in a little over a week.  I didnt really even think about it until I was playing the second course and realized that I had a tee time for that weekend on my third DL3 course in a week.  It was quite interesting to see the differences and grasp a little bit about how they try to mix many traits/theories of Ross and Raynor in their different courses.   Unfortunately I have been so swamped since that week I have never gotten around to posting anything about it.  I am finally doing so.  Sorry it took so long.  

It all started with Barney at Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA.  Then the week I was up in NC and decided to finally get out to see the redesign at Forest Oaks CC in Greensboro (met up with Greg Holland), and then that weekend I got a chance to get out to The Patriot GC that just opened near me in Ninety-Six, SC.  So it was indeed a DL3 tour.  I managed to get in a great day in there also with fellow GCAers Jonathan Doyle, and our host Dunlop White at Old Town Club in Winston-Salem, but that post and pictures will have to wait until I have more time.  I have just been swamped and I figured it had been a while since I was at Kinderlou so it comes first.

Kinderlou Forest CC in Valdosta is the dream of the Langdale (pardon any misspelling) family that owns Langdale Products Co.  A very large privately held forest products company.  Apparently they are giving something back to the community, because the membership is unbelievably reasonable given the quality of the golf and ammenities at the club.  I think they said initiation was $3000 (no I am not missing a zero) and around $150/month.

Unfortunately this was during the breif time when my camera was being sent back to Kodak, so I have no pictures of Kinderlou.  KF was a real treat, I was not sure what to expect as I had never played golf in Valdosta area and didnt know what to expect from the terrain.  The terrain/course was rolling but eminently walkable.  Although Barney and I were dissuaded from walking numerous times by the staff, I guess they took a look at the size conditioning of the two of us and figured we would never make it through the heat and humidity.  Against their opinions we survived.  Again it was refreshing most all of the holes had the championship tees just a few yards from the previous green.  Considering there is a housing development that is involved with the course it was not intrusive, and only caused one time where you had to cross a street, and still probably had a walk of not more than 100-150 yards to the next tee.

The couse played through some nice varied terrain incorporating native wetlands, creeks, and a large quarrylike canyon on the front nine.  The back nine started through a fairly open expanse, moves to some typical GA pine forest area, before returning back to the open expanse on 18 playing up to the clubhouse.

The following week Greg Holland and I got out to Forest Oaks.  We first had to wait out a fairly severe rain and lightning storm so some of these pictures may show some of the effects of all that rain.  DL3's group (our very own Paul Cowley) came in and completed a renovation that was completed in time for last years Greensboro Open.  However according to Greg the course really hadnt grown in like they wanted it.  I will be interested to hear this fall how the players/TV people feel about the course.  The fescue areas are coming in nicely and I thought the renovations were great.

The original design was by Ellis Maples in 1962, but Fuzzy Zoellers group came in back over 10 years ago, and redid the course.  They pushed the greens up considerably and by and large it was not well received by the players over the years.  The Love work was not carried out with the specific goal of returning to Maples design, however interestingly enough Paul has told me that they found many of Maples original green structures very near the same grade that they planned their greens sites.  So it has returned very nearly to the oringinal topography in many areas.


As Greg was nice enough to demonstrate for the camera here are some of the fescue "native" areas that are coming in nicely around the course.  I am looking forward to seeing the course on TV this with a few more months of growth.


Here is a view of the great Biarritz green on the par 5 2nd hole.  The center trough is very pronounced and the green is a treat to play.  It presented numerous challenges and really made the hole something special.


The green at the par 4 5th hole showing a very Raynoresque feel.  The cresent bunker wraps around to about 1o'clock position.


False front on the 6th green a tough dog-leg left par 4 of 454 yds.


9th greensite.  The green has a fairly square shape and some good bunkering left.


Approach and green of the par 5 13th hole.  Note the false front, but what also might not be as easy to see is the false edge that falls off left near the middle of the green.


Fescue coming in on the left side of par 4 14th hole, also you can see more long and right of the green.


Big false front on the front right portion of par 5 15th hole.


Another Raynoresque greesite at the par 4 16th hole.


Approach to the home hole.  The fescues coming in down the right hand side of the tough par 4 18th hole.  As you can see the light was getting a little low for any decent pictures.

The course is a joy to play, and I really enjoyed what Loves group has done.  As I said before I am looking forward to seeing it on TV this fall and see how it is received.  Any Raynor fans may want to come see this place.  It was not done as a specific Raynor replica or anything, it just has alot of his influences that can be seen.

I want to get this thread posted and started so I will do so.  I will post about The Patriot when I get a chance.  It may take me quite a while as you can tell it took me a month to post this.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2004, 12:24:55 AM by Daryl K. Boe »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2004, 10:24:37 AM »
Turbs:

Pictures look great.  I think I've passed on any chances to play Love courses.  Just returned from Hilton Head earlier this month, is the architecture up there as sophistocated as this course you are showing us?

I never thought I wanted or cared to see courses from the DL3 empire, but I'm intrigued now.

Brian_Gracely

Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2004, 10:30:41 AM »
Did Forest Oaks grow that "native" grass up specifically for Scott Hoch?

Greg Holland

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Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2004, 10:33:54 AM »
Thanks Daryl.  I second all he said about Forest Oaks.  I really think Paul Cowley and DLIII did a great job there.  More importantly, they did a PGA course renovation right, adding variety, interest and challenge without simply moving tees back 80 yards.  Indeed, I was told that at a PGA players meeting, David Toms stood up and praised the Greensboro renovation as the way PGA courses should be done (in comparison, he lambasted the work done at LaCosta which was to add length for length's sake).  

As Daryl noted, last year neither the rough nor the fescue had grown in before the tournament.  This year should be a real treat.  The fescue really adds a lot of definition and framing on several of the holes and it is absolutely brutal.  That bunker on 18 in the middle of the fescue is not visible from the tee.

As usual, I played poorly that day.  The shot Daryl shows is my second from that fescue as the first only moved about 3 feet.  It was deep and thick.  On the bright side, I did one putt the biarittz green for my 8.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2004, 10:34:26 AM »
Daryl,
Great pictures and thanks for posting them.  I played Forest Oaks several years ago, and these all look like wonderful improvements in the golf course.

Its too bad that you couldn't swing by the Love course at Jordan Lake in the Triangle area.  I think you have also played Windermere and Laurel Island Links, so you are probably the foremost authority on Love courses on GCA.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2004, 10:45:02 AM »
Alex,

Daryl has already played The Preserve at Jordan Lake (with me) late in 2002.  I don't know if he's played the other Love course in NC, Anderson Creek, which I liked better than The Preserve (not as good a site).

John,

How'd you, the family, and your home fare in Hurricane Charley?  Having been through Hurricane Fran in 1996, I know what can happen.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2004, 11:32:22 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2004, 11:03:06 AM »
Daryl--

In just a quick glance, I didn't read much about your experience at the Patriot.  Is it worth the extra round when going down to play Musgrove?  I'm curious as a lot of very nice comments have been made about from people from whom I wouldn't have expected them from.  

mikes1160

Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2004, 11:24:30 AM »
DL3's Barefoot Landing course in Myrtle Beach is a decent track - some think it's the best of the four at BL. Anderson Creek is worth visiting as well. Can't say the same for The Preserve - the routing is a bit unruly (almost unwalkable) and the fairways will be hard-pan forever.

Mark Brown

Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2004, 12:03:18 PM »
John

Love's first design was at Fripp Island, SC where he didn't have enough land, and his second was at Eagle's Pointe at Hilton Head which is a very mediocre old style (R.T. Jones - like) design with elevated greens, big mounding and bunkers. Not worth playing.

Tom Davis

Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2004, 12:19:04 PM »
I played The Patriot in July.  The course conditions were terrific for new course.  Kudos to course superintendent Billy Ford.  Their greens (a new ultra dwarf called mini verdae sp?) were firm and rolled smooth.

Fun "punch bowl" like green on par three fourth.  Testy "redan" green on short dogleg left par four twelveth.
Short par 3 seventh has a unique "collection" area on left side of green.

Very little " second cut" rough before thick, almost native bermuda rough on perimeter.  I especially liked the contrast this tall bermuda gives around tees.  Similarly, the surrounds of some bunkers have native grasses with almost unkept look -- the right side of par 3 #15 is particularly menacing.




Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2004, 03:24:24 PM »
Daryl--

In just a quick glance, I didn't read much about your experience at the Patriot.  Is it worth the extra round when going down to play Musgrove?  I'm curious as a lot of very nice comments have been made about from people from whom I wouldn't have expected them from.  

Adam,

I just havent had time to post about Patriot yet.  I will (with photos) and I do think it is worth a side trip when down to Musgrove.  What is everyones feelings should I post the Patriot under a seperate thread so that everyone knows it is there.  Or continue on this thread which completes the DL3 tour theme of that week, but I am concerned that some people who want to see the Patriot might not know when I finally get it posted if it is buried in this thread.

Maybe I will post it as a seperate thread as well as on here once so that people know that it exists.

By the way when are you planning on coming down to Musgrove?  I want to make sure I am there for that day.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Love Design Group Course Tour (Orgy)
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2004, 03:41:06 PM »
Daryl,
Great pictures and thanks for posting them.  I played Forest Oaks several years ago, and these all look like wonderful improvements in the golf course.

Its too bad that you couldn't swing by the Love course at Jordan Lake in the Triangle area.  I think you have also played Windermere and Laurel Island Links, so you are probably the foremost authority on Love courses on GCA.

A.G.

Some of those courses I played quite a while ago, and cannot recall specifics but will give my quick one line comments on some.  I certainly didnt go into this with the intent of being the DL3 expert, I guess as you have described it I have played lots of their courses.  As a general rule some of their early efforts were just OK, but I feel I have seen some growth as their experience increases and probably the projects they get also improve.

Laurel Island Links - Actually I have not played this one yet, but I hope to.

Preserve @ Jordan Lake - Not the best, the layout is forced due to housing development, not very walkable, and the course is just OK.

Windermere (Atlanta) - This course was built on a nearly unworkable piece of property.  I remember driving around when they were moving dirt, and I was convinced this was going to be the worst golf course ever anywhere in the world.  When I played it I was surprised what they were able to do with the property.  It is certainly not one of my favorites, and it is probably one of the most unwalkable courses I have ever played.   But there are some good holes out there, and again I was surprised with what they were able to do with the site.

Anderson Creek - Thought this course was very fun to play a much more walkable piece of property, but still a fair ammount of roll to the property.

Love Course at Barefoot Landing - I thought the routing and course were good.  Some here are not crazy about the ruins on the course.   I dont think the course is good because of the ruins, but I dont think they hurt either (as some apparently do).  I just think overall it is a solid course that happens to incorporate the quirkyness of the ruins and it works.

Again I have seen a maturation and flavor coming out in Loves group over their last few courses.  Maybe it is just me paying closer attention to what I am seeing, or maybe it is the group feeling that they have a little more artistic license as they get more established in their craft.

I would welcome comments from anyone from Love Golf, as I know we have a couple guys on here from time to time.
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Charley
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2004, 03:59:43 PM »
Scott:

Thanks for your concern.  My community got smoked, but I still feel fortunate any time I look around.

Here is a summary I've sent to others.
--
HURRICANE CHARLEY UPDATE: MON. 8/16 NOON -
Thanks to all who have expressed concern for our community.  All in all, my family came out okay.  Four downed trees and tons of debris on our block clogged the road, but very little structural damage was done.  Other parts of Winter Park fared worse.  We are still without power and water at home - as a result my family has sought shelter in a hotel.  (Harris Rosen has generously offered evacuees a deeply discounted rate.)  Please say a prayer for those less fortunate as some parts of Central Florida and the area around Charlotte County are the real victims.  Big concerns now are the restoration of power, which will take up to a week for some in our area, and gasoline and food distribution.  We feel blessed to have escaped with just minor inconveniences.  Power was restored to our office last night.  You can reach me at the office or my cel phone (407) 718-8390 with anything that concerns you.  UPDATE - MON. 5:45 P.M.  Orange County will not resume school until next Tuesday, so there must really be a lot of damage in the area.