[Patrick_Mucci]

Recently I played a golf course that had a repetitive feature that thwarted many of my approach shots, those hit well and those that were mis-hit.

That feature was a slightly elevated green with a subtle, to pronounced, elevated roll in the front of the green.

Shots hit slightly short stayed short.
Shots hit to the front of the green, checked and rolled back off of the green.

How many courses use this feature ?

How many courses use the feature repetitively ?

Why don't we see more of this feature on modern golf courses ?

[Mike Benham]

Timely question Patrick ...

I just played a course that has numerous greens with the devilish fronting roll, Peninsula G&CC in San Mateo.

As the course is built on a hillside, with most of the holes running up or down hill and no side hill holes.  The false fronts are part of the green with the exact situation you described when receiving approach shots.  What makes matters worse at this club is that they over water the course, so a running shot is out of the question.

I would think that this type of design feature could stymie the ground game, inviting the golfer to lob in the approach shot depending on course conditions.

I'm not sure that I like this feature so I am pleased that more modern courses don't have it.

Do you approve of this feature, and if so, why?

Mike

[TEPaul]

Interesting observation Pat!

We have a really good "roll" on the very front of our 17th green, a long downhill par 3. That subtle feature works wonders with playability. I call it a "super seasonal" architectural feature because if the ground in the approach is soft you just have to fly the ball over it to get on the green but if the ground in the approach is firm and the green is too you pretty much have to land the ball short of it and roll it over it onto the green. If you hit the ball over it in firm conditions and catch the back of it the ball will turbo-boost all the way to the back of the green.

Matter of fact that little roll feature was so interesting to us Gil put it into the front of the new redesigned #7 green, except on that green being a par 5 it works far differently on two shots, one coming into the par 5 in two as an inline feature if you're a bit wide right of the green and as a perpindicular feature if you're coming into the green in three!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I like the feature because I think it defends front pin positions rather well.  It also penalizes the marginal or mis-hit shot, or a good shot with the wrong club.

I'd agree that wet conditions tend to eliminate attacking via the ground, but realistically, who deliberately hits a running shot from 130 to 170 yards out, especially if the intervening ground contours are not level ?  And, who hits that shot to front pins with trouble short ?

I like the feature despite my difficulty with it on some recent rounds.

TEPaul,

I agree, the turbo boost feature on the back side of the roll further serves to challenge the golfer, adding to the attractiveness of this feature.

[PGertner]

If it is an older golf course, sometimes years and years of topdressing create these small humps that you all describe.  Sometimes these were not design features at all, but are the result of years and years of maintenance.  

PGertner

[Jeff_Brauer]

Simpson wrote about those, I think.  And Hurdzan basically said the same thing in his book.

In Simpson's day, they were considered sporty, but over time, I suspect one too many greens chairman came up short and felt it was unfair that his ball rolled back from the front of the green.  Then, they were gone, in the name of fairness, speed of play, receptivity, etc.

From the supers point of view, a mound just inside the front of the green may require more watering.  However, the heavy traffic and mower turning just in front of the green means that any overwatering to accomodate the green may make that area too wet, leaving mower tracks, etc. not to mention taking away any run up option, as if anyone uses it.  

Somewhere along the line, all of those factors doomed this quirky little feature at most clubs......Just my opinion, based on my experience......If I used it at all, I would use it just once or twice per course.  Jay Morrish used that feature about once per course for a period of time.  In some ways, I think it is a historical nod to the 4th at TOC.....

[Bill_McBride]

Pat Mucci, does "roll" equal "false front?"

[A_Clay_Man]

Bill- What Pat described sure sounded like a false front to me.  Even down to the reverse cant, from the opposite side of the roll. Pacific Grove has some of the best repetitive false fronts on #11, #12 and 18. Shadow Creek had a few too. At my home course the rolls are to the rear and onne even has it falling off the left side and the rear. I secretly lament not playing the course backwards becasue of them.

If what Pat described is not a flase front the only hole I can think of that would  qualify, is the number one handicap # 5 hole at Spaniish Bay.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

PGert,

It's not an old course, and top dressing could never build the feature to these dimensions and configurations.

Bill McBride & Adam Clayman,

It's not a false front, but a design feature that appears in the begining of the green.  It can be rather subtle and go unnoticed unless your ball happens to encounter it, and you figure out how your ball ended up in front of the green, or way beyond the pin.

What appears to be critical to its successful influence on the ball is the combination of the fronting elevation and the roll or bump in the front portion of the green.

[TEPaul]

To be honest I haven't really seen that many rolls on fronts of greens that're elevated as Pat's describing and obviously saw recently.

Most of the rolls on green fronts I've seen are on greens that're generally downhillish or perhaps flat where water needs to be taken away and around the green surface itself.

The incredible effective roll to playability on the front of GMGC's #17 green (and now at the front of GMGC's #7 hole) was probably not much more than a "form follows function" thing initially. Ross obviously understood that if GMGC's #17 did not have that roll on the green front water would simply run down the long expanse of the hill and all over the green. That can't really happen with the roll---the majority of the water will filiter off to the right due to the berm-like effect of the roll on sheet drainage.

Obvously this function isn't really necessary on uphill greens.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The next time you play Hidden Creek, a Coore & Crenshaw design, hopefully, before you play it on August 25th with Ran, take a look at the front of every green, and let me know what you see.

And please, make sure that your seeing eye dog, Coorshaw is there to guide you.
Remember, two barks means YES, three barks means NO, and one bark means Mucci is right again.

[TEPaul]

Can we expect a point there in our future Pat? If there's a roll in the front of every green at Hidden Creek anything like the one I'm talking about in the front of GMGC's #17 or #7, then you're right, I sure did miss it and I doubt Cooreshaw will be able to find it for me.

And thanks for telling me Coore and Crenshaw designed that golf course---I've always wondered who it was!  

[Mike Benham]

Mike,

I like the feature because I think it defends front pin positions rather well.  It also penalizes the marginal or mis-hit shot, or a good shot with the wrong club.

I'd agree that wet conditions tend to eliminate attacking via the ground, but realistically, who deliberately hits a running shot from 130 to 170 yards out, especially if the intervening ground contours are not level ?  And, who hits that shot to front pins with trouble short ?

Patrick -

Is the trouble short you mention the fronting roll?  If so, I don't consider it to be as penal as a bunker or heavy rough.

On front hole locations, I prefer to land the ball short, just short of front edge with a hopeful short kick forward towards the hole.  The fronting roll will reduce the effectiveness of this shot.  Doesn't mean I won't try and play it ... unless the ground conditions are too soft ...

I believe the Road Hole at TOC is a perfect example ...

[henrye]

Pat, while I have seen a number of holes with this feature, I think what is more common today is simply an elevated green with a front to back slope.  The effect of hitting it short of the green usually results in the ball remaining short, while hitting the ball to the middle/back tends to result in the ball creeping off the back.

The feature of placing the hump at the front of the green, results in more maintenance and more ball marks requiring maintenance - or at least I think it does.

[johnk]

A classic example of this that I play is at Shoreline GL, number 15.  The approach is slightly higher than the green.  It may not be strictly elevated because the approach is usually from ground higher than the green, however, there is a good width hollow in front of the green that effectively elevates the roll aspect.

A great way to make an otherwise boring hole interesting, IMHO.  Getting up and down to the front pin can be very difficult.  Only 1 shot in 10 can hold near the front pin...

The whole green is tilted to the left, so the middle pin anywhere on the right benefits from the defenses of the "fronting roll".

Insidious and fun!

[Allan Long]

Pat,

If a pin is on the front of the green and the greens have any speed, how would a putt from above the hole react? Are you lagging and hoping for the best, or is there a legitimate shot at making the putt. If I am understanding your description, because of having to come back over the rolls, it seems that it would be difficult to keep such a putt from running too far away if it misses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Allan Long,

How is there a putt from above the hole ?

Why are you referencing mutliple rolls, when only one exists, at the front of the green ?

Approaches hit long have a fairly level putt in most cases.

HenryE,

This is a different feature then a green sloped back to front, and, there are no additional maintainance issues, or ball marks.
Very few approaches hit the front of the roll, most land short of the green or long of the pin.

Mike Benham,

How many greens have heavy rough directly adjacent to, and in front of them ?  I know of very few based on the golf courses I've played.  The same can be said of bunkers that front the entire forward area of the green.

You're indicating that when you're 130, 150, 170 and 190 yards from the green, and the pin is up front, that you deliberately land the ball short of the green ?

What's your handicap ?

I don't believe that the 17th green at TOC has this feature, it's slightly elevated and sloped, but absent a pronounced front bump or roll within the first few feet of the green, so I'm not so sure that I'd agree with you on that comparison.

[Allan Long]

Pat,

I was having a hard time visualizing your scenario, but I am clearer now. My reference to multiple rolls was more typo than anything. I was clear that there was only one roll. I was trying to distinguish between your scenario and one I faced recently where every green was elevated, and although there was no roll to speak of, many front pins were inaccessible.

[henrye]

Pat, I understand it is a different feature.  What I was pointing out is what I think architects are doing today to create a similar effect - and I do think think there is a maintenance difference.

Why do very few balls hit the front of the roll?  In the greens that I have seen with a hump up front - most people aim for and often hit the roll resulting in multiple ball marks on that section of the green - the result is similar to a collection area in a fairway where you might find a number of divots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

HenryE,

You must play with far, far better golfers then I do.

That roll is at most a three or four yard target, and from 130, 150, 170 and 190 hitting that target is far beyond the ability of the  golfers I play with.

Most golfers come up short of the green, even without a roll so that area of the green doesn't suffer a disproportionate number of pitch marks, certainly no more so than any other section of the green.

Front pins have always been more difficult for me, and the fronting roll defends them even better.

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