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Mike Benham

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Did Mickelson revert to ...
« on: June 22, 2004, 07:50:14 PM »
form and choke on #17?

Is this over-looked because he is NY's favorite step-child?

Because he has now won a major and get's a freebie from criticism?

Did Bones give him bad yardage or a bad read?

How did Johnny Miller miss this ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2004, 08:42:13 PM »
Mickelson said afterwards that he was not unhappy with being in the front bunker at all.  He knew that it was decent leave and he should get up and down most of the time.  It was far better to be there instead of right of the hole and having to chip down the hill.  

He says that he just misjudged how far he needed to carry the ball with his sand shot, he carried it to the hole instead of short of it.  This left him with the ligtning quick putt for par.

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2004, 09:33:17 PM »
I think Mickelson played great- what happened on 17 was unfortunate, but I would rather think about his 3 out of 4 birdies on the back nine - besides Goosen was awesome down the stretch with his putter and simply outlasted Phil.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2004, 09:45:51 PM »
Mike Benham,

If Mickelson choked on his tee shot at # 17, then so did Goosen.

You don't have to choke to hit an errant shot.
Errant shots happen all the time, just look at Goosen's approaches on # 8 and # 14 from 127 yards and with a 9 iron.

I find it hard to believe that a PGA Tour pro who got to Shinnecock five days early, played an abundance of practice rounds and four rounds of competition misjudged a distance.
Especially when he has a professional caddy whose job it is to dial in distances to the inch.

LenBum

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2004, 07:01:41 AM »
Both Goosen and Mickelson hit their shots at 17 pretty much the right distance. Both balls ended up just about pin high. If their tee shots were a bit more right both probably would have hit the green and ended up on the back.

ChasLawler

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 09:59:16 AM »
His par putt on 17 was no gimme, but I think it could be argued pretty easily that he choked on his bogey putt - especially with Goosen watching from the tee.

Had Mickelson made bogey instead of double, Goosen's up and down on 17 becomes much more difficult - as does par on 18.

Like Evan said though, Mickelson played so well to even get in a postition to "choke", that it's really a shame to focus on his screw-ups anyway.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 10:03:13 AM »
Anyone who brings up "choking" in that context is a complete neophyte who has never seen championship golf played on a major-course set up in those conditions. Did Mickelson make a mis-judgement? Probably. But that'spart of golf. Under those conditions, with that turmoil around him and the carnage left behind on the course everywhere else - that was stunningly fine golf.


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 10:28:39 AM »
Brad et al,  

I agree. But is it plausible that Phil got caught up in being PHIL down the stretch?

Stated otherwise, if did not have the green jacket in the closet is it plausible that he would now be the U. S. Open Champion?

Phil played to the gallery while Goosen simply played to the hole.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 10:37:15 AM »
I find it hard to believe that a PGA Tour pro who got to Shinnecock five days early, played an abundance of practice rounds and four rounds of competition misjudged a distance.
Especially when he has a professional caddy whose job it is to dial in distances to the inch.

I watched the last six groups play seventeen.  Almost ALL of them misjudged the distance.  The wind was stronger by the green than it was by the tee.  I'm certain that all of them knew the exact yardage; but, they all struggled adjusting their shots for the wind.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 10:39:52 AM »
 8)

No choke.  That's disingenuous to being "there" in the first place as noted previously.  RG WON the 72 hole tourney!  

I lean to chalking it up to that pre-shot routine for putting.. that tiny fraction of slope difference 30 degrees counter-clock-wise, could have made the difference in rolling those putts..  seems fine for a flat green, not for a sloped one, though..  
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A_Clay_Man

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 10:54:47 AM »
 I thought I saw, upon Phil's realization that he had left himself one bitch of a par putt, loooked like "oh SH*T", to me. That's not choking, but more along the lines of diminished confidence. If you asked what he'd do differently, I'd bet he'd tell you. And if he says "nothing", then I'm afraid he missed the lesson, and may have to re-take the class..

Brian_Gracely

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 11:05:20 AM »
Phil missed his target by about 3yds (short) and was hitting a 6iron for a shot of 166yds (his statement).  If you watched the telecast, you could see that right before he hit he went back to Bones for a yardage as the wind seemed to confuse him slightly.  

Old Phil would have been hitting 8 or 9 iron.  Old Phil also would have gone for the green on #16 in two from the rough.

Phil's overall game is alot more solid and his thinking more sound.  But I still wouldn't bet alot on him having to make a bunch of 4-5' putts coming down the stretch (as we say on 17-18 on Sat, 17 on Sun).

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 10:17:42 PM »
Mike Benham,

If Mickelson choked on his tee shot at # 17, then so did Goosen.

You don't have to choke to hit an errant shot.
Errant shots happen all the time, just look at Goosen's approaches on # 8 and # 14 from 127 yards and with a 9 iron.

I find it hard to believe that a PGA Tour pro who got to Shinnecock five days early, played an abundance of practice rounds and four rounds of competition misjudged a distance.
Especially when he has a professional caddy whose job it is to dial in distances to the inch.

Most of you have commented on the tee shot, which was anything but a choke ...

More specifically, what about the 3-putt ... As Mike Hendren noted "Did Phil get caught up in being [the old] Phil?" ...

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

johnk

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 10:47:25 PM »
The first putt was difficult, but the second was a choke, and it let Retief cruise on in without pressure.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2004, 10:48:09 PM »
no no no

he played one of the greatest final rounds in us open history on a horrific day.

he got beat by retiefs putter. period.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

TEPaul

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2004, 06:07:47 AM »
Did Phil choke? Did Phil get caught up in being Phil? (What the hell does that mean?).

People, read Brad Klein's post #6 about twenty times and drop this discussion! Phil Mickelson missed a downhill slightly breaking 4-5 footer on ultra slick greens at the 11th hour on Sunday in the US Open and then missed about 7 footer coming back. In that kind of tournament golf these kinds of things happen as a matter of course sometimes. Phil Mickelson played some of the best tough tournament golf of his life and said so. He started out two strokes behind Goosen and he finished that way. Goosen just played better and more error free golf when it counted! Phil didn't choke, he just got beat by a guy who played even better than he did when it mattered!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2004, 06:08:55 AM by TEPaul »

ForkaB

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2004, 06:24:31 AM »
Tom

As that great sage Matt Ward has said many times, golf (and life) is all about "closing the deal."  Phil had a chance to close the deal on 17, and not only did he not do that, he in fact gave the tournament to Retief by 3-jabbing.  As GREAT as he played for the other holes, this was a tragic flaw.  I personally, do not think it is reverting to form, but he clearly did lose his concentration, when it really mattered.

TEPaul

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2004, 07:11:12 AM »
Rich:

Maybe you think Matt Ward is some great sage for harping on the cliche "closing the deal" is all that matters but I don't.

Closing the deal is a reality but the problem I have with the  analyses you and Matt Ward seem to put on things like Mickelson in the US Open on Sunday at Shinnecock is you both seem to naturally concentrate and fixate on something negative not something positive, particularly something ultimately positve like how Goosen finished in relation to how he started!! It's almost like you seem to think somehow a couple of golfers or more all have to win or somebody did something wrong!

Mickelson played some of the best golf of his life on Sunday, and so did Retief Goosen. Mickelson made some mistakes (in the final analysis in those closing rounds of Opens to those guys who understand the pressures and vagaries of tournament golf a lot better than you or Matt Ward do, it's not really WHERE you drop shots or fail to pick them up it's just whether you do or not by the end!).

Mickelson played great and made some mistakes through the round. Goosen played great and made some mistakes through the round too!

Mickelson started out two strokes behind Goosen, shot a 71 and finished two strokes behind Goosen. Goosen also shot a 71 and won by the two over Mickleson where he started the day.

Supreme Walter Mittys like you and Matt tend to fixate on what happened on #17 as the defining moment--a negative moment among others but also among some extraordinary positives! You should give credit to what Goosen did, not detract from Mickelson for what he didn't do--and certainly not what he did wrong on one hole. Both of them dropped shots and made birdies to get some of them back.

Both players shot 71--truly great golf, one in front of the other under those extreme conditions. All Mickelson failed to do is make up those two strokes he started the round behind Goosen.

That's the way those pros who know how to play the game and play at that level under those conditions and that pressure look at something like last Sunday at the US Open at Shinnecock, but why would anyone expect you to really understand that?

I miss Ken Venturi at a time like this with his constant refrain "You had to have been there to understand." It's the remark that the "know it all" Walter Mittys all over the world who love to watch high level tournament golf but really don't know what those players are going through came to hate!

Why did they hate that remark? Because it exposed them for what they all really are---Walter Mittys, and its the truth.

ForkaB

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2004, 07:21:33 AM »
Tom

In your formal education you seemed to have missed out on three courses:

Perspective 101
Introduction to Irony
Timing for non-Physicists

If you really think that a missed putt on 3 (say) is equivalent to a missed putt on 17 in the final round of an Open, and if you do not understand the significance of the fact that Mickleson was playing in the group AHEAD of Goosen, then you really need to bone up on the concepts of both perspective and timing.

As for irony, well, just work on the 1st two and we'll agree that two out of three ain't bad......

TEPaul

Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2004, 08:00:11 AM »
Rich:

Last time I looked the missed putt on #3 and the missed putt on #17 each counted one stroke, but I wouldn't really expect you to understand or appreciate that either. As for those courses you listed--is that what you took in school? Now I really do see what you mean by "a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing."

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2004, 09:55:03 AM »
Did Phil choke? Did Phil get caught up in being Phil? (What the hell does that mean?).

Tom Paul,

Just like Arnold liked being Arnold, Phil likes being Phil.  Nobody's that happy under that kind of pressure, but let's smile for the gallery.  Can you envision Hogan or Nicklaus plopping down in that camp chair on the tee while waiting for the group ahead to clear?  I'm surprised his caddie didn't whip out a Zippo lighter, a straightened coat hanger and a bag of marshmallows.  

Understand, this is not a criticism.  This is likely genuine behavior that I could easily see myself engaging in under those same circumstances.  I hope it genuinely reflects his personality and have no reason to believe it doesn't. I like Phil, too.

That personality, however endearing, might (and I mean might) be the difference between a hall of fame golfer who wins multiple majors and one of the top ten champions of all time.  We'll see.

I should add:  Maintenance meld?  What the heck does that mean? ;)

Mike
« Last Edit: June 24, 2004, 09:56:55 AM by Mike_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2004, 10:33:39 AM »

Phil Mickelson missed a downhill slightly breaking 4-5 footer on ultra slick greens at the 11th hour on Sunday in the US Open and then missed about 7 footer coming back.


A perfect example of Phil being (the old) Phil ...

I will guarantee you that if Phil had not won the Master's, the c-word would be thrown around in the post-mortem of the US Open.

Phil did play fabulous golf on Sunday, for 17 holes.  Goosen made the putts when he needed to, Phil made almost all the putts when he needed to.

In fact, Phil's last 2 final rounds in Majors have been pretty spectacular.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2004, 11:31:23 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2004, 11:21:30 AM »
Ben Hogan 3-putted on 18 to lose the 1946 Masters to Herman Kaiser by one shot. He three-putted on 18 at the 1946 U.S. Open to miss a playoff by one shot. In 1956 Hogan missed 30-inch putt for par on the 17th hole in the final round of the U.S. Open to lose to Cary Middlecoff by one shot.

Did he choke? Given Hogan's career accomplishments -- including winning the 1946 PGA for his first major after his putting problems in that year's Masters and the Open -- does it matter? Great players all miss putts at crucial times. We'll have to wait till Phil's career is over to know whether the 17th at Shinnecock was a hiccup or part of a career-long pattern.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Mickelson revert to ...
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2004, 02:13:52 PM »
Glenn Sheely, the golf writer for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (current inder 7.8) played Shinnecock on Monday.  His column today is a recap of his round and a very good read.  For what it is worth, he says that Mickelson's putt on 17 was "definitely more downhill than it looked on TV.  With the wind behind it, it was a nightmare putt to have in that situation."  The comebacker, I think, was a longer putt that the first.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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