[Paul_Turner]

No prizes for guessing the architect.  I'll comment on the differences later.


Great 14th



Great 2nd.  Once that bunker was a central hazard!




4th par 3.  Bunkers redone and spoiled.


Nice rolling 5th, par 4.




5th green


Short par 4 6th.


Trciky 7th green.


8th.  Tough green contours here.

Shortish par 5 9th.

Approaching 9th.

10th

10th.

12th

12th





Same bunker then and now.





What happened to the green?

One bunker that's still full face.

15th.  Nasty drop right.

Short par 4 16th pitch.  V tricky green here.

17th.





18th tee

18th green

Bunkers around 18th in the distance.

[Pete Lavallee]

Paul;

Great photo's as usual. Where exactly is Tandridge?
And is the daper poser on the 10th actually sporting a Perranporth jersey?

[Paul_Turner]

Pete

Yes it's the posing Perranporth plonker.  Tandridge is close to Walton Heath.

[NAF]

That is the poser!! Me with the Perranporth shirt--In fact I have it on today..

Tandridge is a fascinating course from several perspectives.  It is located in Oxted (Surrey) about 15 minutes from Gatwick Airport.. Hardly anyone here has heard of it nor knew it other than Paul and my friend who is a member there (the other bloke in the pix).

I don't know how you classify Tandridge-it isnt heathland and not totally parkland but with the recent tree growth and the amount of bunkers that have been taken out it still has a duality feel to it.

The back 9 is the more famous and varied.   It contains the enormous elevation changes and better holes.  Look at the 14th (the best hole perhaps on the course) and the 17th.  Huge elevated tees that make you feel like you can hit for miles.  You'll also see especially on #17 from the tee some of the bunkers that have taken the teeth out of the course on the left (where the trees are).  The other big thing to notice is the loss of flashed up bunkers.  Truly a travesty when you play there.  With tree pruning and rebunkering, this course would really be more than the hidden gem it still is.

The front 9 is underrated but the grand sweeping 2nd hole where the old center cluster bunker complex one is terrific and the elevated green is a joy to hit in regulation (and steeply pitched back to front.  It is a shame the tee shot is now ruined by the tree growth on the right taking the center strategy hazard out of play. Paul and I saw an old aerial of the 2nd hole with this principal nose hazard and it was an All Surrey hole if I've ever seen one.

This club is in need of a certain expert on this master architect's design.. I won't reveal who did it.. So, easy to figure out since Paul is involved.

[T_MacWood]

From the looks of it quite a unique golf course, which must have been even more unique in the old days--the combination of dramatic topography and heavy bunkering.  Whats the story of the 17th green complex...thats an odd one.

[T_MacWood]

Paul
According to Hawtree this course originally had close 300 bunkers....any idea why Colt chose to bunker it so heavily?

[TEPaul]

Wonderful photos and comparative photos.

It's amazing what maturity and general tree growth will do to the look and feel of any golf course over a very extended period of time---best example, the 14th.

That bunker on the 10th is a great example of a good old fashioned "pop-up"---definitely the style of an era!

I like the look and feel of that 6th hole and I'd like it even more if they'd lose those ridiculous pine trees on the left!

[TEPaul]

"Paul
According to Hawtree this course originally had close 300 bunkers....any idea why Colt chose to bunker it so heavily?"

Tom MacWood:

That kind of thing is probably basically unknowable but if you ask me Geoff Shackelford came up with a very logical and rational answer to this kind of question on here a few years ago.

If you look at some of the greens and tees on that course it may be not that much more than a form follows function type of thing. Some of those greens and some of the tees appear to have required considerable amounts of fill---and where did they get fill in those days but by digging holes near to where they needed that fill. Logically those holes were just used as bunkering! Some today might not think that was all that architecturally scientific, but, hey, that's just the way they did it back then---and thank God for it!

[T_MacWood]

TE

Ross--Broadmoor (In) and Aronomink
Travis--Hollywood'
Tillinghast--Bethpage and SFGC
Alison--Hirono
MacKenzie--Royal Melbourne, Kingston Heath & CPC
Thompson--St.Georges
Colt--Muirfield and Tandridge
Flynn--Shinnecock
Fownes--Oakmont

In looking back at the most extravagantly bunkered courses I suspect there as many reasons as courses, they all appear have their own reasons. Perhaps fill as you say, or maybe design preference, or site specific harmony or championship concerns, or a penal leaning period, or jazzing up a lifeless site (a common Colt practice), or maybe a rogue constructor (Aronomink theory).....

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,

Great photos as ever.  Thanks for sharing them with us.  

Putting it in context I think Tandridge is pretty well known in that part of south-east England, though it's probably unknown to most living in other parts of the country.  The wonderful thing is that you can go to almost any part of the UK and find several courses of equivalent quality, and London and its surroundings have a very high proportion of very good courses in addition to its exceptional ones.  

Where would you rank Tandridge against, say, Worplesdon, West Hill,  West Surrey, Beaconsfield, Berkhamstead, Burnham Beeches or Coombe Hill, to mention a few in that class of good courses?

[Paul_Turner]

Toms

Yes the club touts 300 bunkers.  It now has around 100 and I saw about 80 filled.  Not sure where the rest are/were!

Like Tom M points out.  Colt tended to bunker heavily when the land wasn't very exciting.  Which isn't the case for Tandridge:  the front 9 rolls nicely and the back 9 is spectacular.

TomP makes a good point about fill.  There's clearly a lot done on the course.

Form what I can work out.  The course had the full number of bunkers until the 60s/70s.

Recently Donald Steel came in and added some bunkers for the modern game.  Here's my take:

He's tried to be sypathetic to Colt.  The aren't obtrusive, but I think he isn't sympathetic to Colt's style at Tandridge; which is clearly big and bold in the old pics.   Steel's bunker work at Tandridge is almost identical to that at Beaconsfield which is a very different course.

Steel's bunkers mostly appear to be on the far outside of the dogleg to punish the bail out for the longer hitter (see the tee shot photo of the 5th, but it's also true for the 3rd and 11th).  In my experience this is the opposite of what Colt tended to do.  He prefered to bunker on a diagonal, with the furthest bunker on the agressive, inside line.

Steel did some good work in clearing out trees.  They could do some more, to open up sweeping views of the North Downs.

The club is aware of its history.  And simply states it filled bunkers for maintenance/expense reasons.  Since the club clearly has a very wealthy membership, I think this reasoning isn't sound; particularly since the course was maintained, as designed, for several decades.

I'd like to see the following restored, as a start:

2nd as NAF points out.  Take out most of the trees on the right and return the central bunker, to the centre!

3rd.  Similarly, clear out most of the trees and return the central bunker.  It's a dullish hole as it is now.

4th, 18th.  Put the full face bunkers back.  It suits the terrain and the current traps look lame.

I wouldn't advocate returning all the bunkers because some of the tree growth adds to the course, in a landscape sense.  And I get the impression that some of those bunkers were in place on the heavy slopes, to stop a ball bounding down onto adjacent fairways: now the trees do that job.

Can't see any of this happening though.  There just isn't any kind of "restoration" momentum in the UK.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,  A wealthy membership doesn't mean they know anything about classic course architecture or value its restoration.  I can think of several northern clubs with a similar scenario.  I think much depends on how the members run their own club.  Parkestone has done great work mostly because of the vision and knowledge of one man, Donald Holmes, who is president in a long-term and very managerial way.  At most other clubs nobody could acquire such power.  For the most part the Captain is Chief Executive for one year and in that time he can do very little.  The Green Committee are concerned with fusarium wilt on this green or perhaps changing the type of sand in a particular bunker, but they could never have the power to get a £1 million+ restoration pushed through.  Most of those courses which have retained their classical design features have done so through the neglect and disinterest of members!

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

Yes, I agree.  Neglect often works.  Tandridge appears to want to fiddle with the design more.  The point I was making about the wealth of the membership, is that their complaint about expense with upkeep of those bold bunkers, rings a bit hollow!  

I think that hurricane in the 80s, restored some of the course.  A cheap way!

I do think that Tandridge would be a standout course if it was just guided in a different direction.  It's never going to be quite a match for Walton Heath and the big gun local heathland courses.  But it would be right at the top of the next tier.

[Paul_Turner]

PS

Mark, if that slack jawed NAFFER ever send me the pics, I can do the same for Parkstone.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Whenever I see greens like the 2nd, 6th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 17th and maybe a few others that are built up against natural grade (slopes) for the sole purpose of leveling the green off enough for playability you can surely bet there are excavations for fill on the low sides that are used for bunkering. Some of those green sites on Tandridge look to have required a good deal of fill to level enough for green sites.

Ross did this all over the place. When you see a massive and generally steep low side bunker against a green on one of his courses it's not hard to imagine what the slope looked like before he decided on that area for a greensite and how he went about getting the necessary fill to do the green.

[T_MacWood]

Paul
Supposedly John Morrison was in charge of the work at Prestbury. Some of the bunkering looks similar, in particular the 13th green at Tandridge and White Cliffs of Dover hole at Prestbury.

Is there any evidence that Morrison was involved at Tandridge, perhaps the 300+ bunkers--greenside and through the green--were the result of an exuberant young Morrison.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I've never read Morrison's name in connection with Tandridge.  No doubt he was involved at some point.  Darwin wrote the club handbook (where these old pics come from), it's a beauty.

Actually, there's a piece by Morrison  (after Colt had died) where he champions fewer bunkers.  And also implies that Colt held this view; which is a bit odd!?  Perhaps they moved away from heavy bunkering.  I'll have to think about that and their courses.  Portrush is an obvious example of a later course with few bunkers, but then the land didn't need many bunkers.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I do agree that the general terrain and course look to have some similarity at Prestbury and Tandridge.  I also think that Manchester, as it was bunkered originally, may be similar too.  But I have only played Tandridge, Mark Rowlinson has played them all.

The White Cliffs of Dover should definitely be returned to Prestbury's 5th.  The current green complex with the banks covered in scrub, just isn't nearly as interesting.

[Marc Haring]

Great pictures as ever Paul. I have kind of fond memories of Tandridge having come runner up in the national Artisans championship there oh so many years ago. I lost out to Brian Turner the course manager of Sunningdale and the year before was runner up at Walton Heath. I remember being highly impressed with Tandridge, as you say the elevation changes, the memorable #14 and the greens which were of exceptional quality.
This whole economics debate and restoration at so many of our great courses. Thurlestone was another one you highlighted. Having worked at so many of these clubs over the years, I have to come to the conclusion that it is basically down to the incredible tightness of those influential types that hold sway in the committees. I’ve seen it so many times before, all they are interested in is cutting back those annual subs and the result is an ever decreasing course maintenance budget with inevitable results. There are signs of change but until all those stingy gits with their laminated woods actually die, true restoration will remain a dream.  

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I think the great thing about Prestbury is the siting of its greens.  These (and the bunkers) were added five or six years after the course opened.  I was told that Colt returned to do this, but perhaps it was, indeed, Morrison.  They're well worth studying.  Most are raised enough to put a real premium on approach play.  Paul, I think you flatter its 5th green by describing it as a 'complex'.  It's about as bland as you could find!  It is simply a flat ledge cut on the side of a hill with a very basic 45-degree slope on the front and right if you come up short.  It's an eye-sore, especially considering how handsome the rest of the course is.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

This is what the 5th at Prestbury used to look like, with its White Cliffs!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Paul,

Thanks so much for the photo.  You might possibly scan the one in my Cheshire book for comparison - and, of course, the prolific trees now make it look totally different.

There's rather a nice par-3 course opened at Adlington, not far away from Prestbury - holes from 110 to 249 yards, interesting moundwork and greens.  I presume it's Hawtree, as they did the existing 9 holes there.  No sand bunkers as yet.  What you chaps would like about it is that it is wide open.  There are two or three mature trees left standing and about a dozen saplings planted, but they are all miles away from play.  It's adjacent to the British Aerospace airfield at Woodford and the wind really whistles over the open ground, making it very linkslike in play.  £8 for 9 holes - good value.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Courtesy of Bob Huntley, posted once before in the
clubhouses thread, here's the clubhouse of Tandridge from years past:



That is a thatch roof.

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