[Adam_F_Collins]

I think one of the most overlooked areas in the assessment of any design, is the potential effect of the client.

In the discussion of golf course architecture, land always comes up - the land they had to work with - but that's because anyone walking the course can usually get some idea of that parameter because it's there in front of them to be observed.

But what about clients? In my field, some clients will hire a designer just so they can say that their product "was professionally designed" - but what they really want is for me to be a production artist for their design and aren't really interested in my creative input, unless it supports what they already think.

On the other hand, there are also clients who are great collaborators who challenge, yet propel me to new heights.

And sometimes, there are clients who just step back and let you run; trusting you to make the right choices.

Do Golf Course Architects face these same variations? Are there examples we know where clients ruined a design? Are there examples we know of where a client really MADE the design - or really made it sing?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Adam,

I don't know what design field you are in, but in golf design, the short answer to your question is YES.

Right now, I am interviewing for a few renovation projects in the same area.  One is the best club in town, seeking the very best playing surfaces for a limited number of rounds.  The other is a muni looking to upgrade the look a bit, but also with maintenance in mind, high play, etc.

Naturally, my sales message will be tailored to their specific needs, which are vastly different, and if my message isn't right, I won't get the job!  If and when I get one or the other, then its easy to see how my design proposals will be vastly different.

The one thing they both have in common is the need to know "how easy we will be to work with."  That usually means, will we force our ideas on them, or will their input be accepted as part of the process.  Any good architect, up to and including, say Tom Fazio at Shadow Creek, will usually take specific good input fromt the Owner, in addition to following their general goals, while naturally trying to keep them from doing something that won't work, and giving them the very best design possible.

The third way the Owner influences the project is, of course, by providing a budget equal to his goals, whatever they may be.....

[Keith Williams]

I don't know how much this relates directly back to the client, but not just an hour ago I watched the design of a golf hole get significantly altered with the course designer being the party with the least input in the decision.

Originally the archie had proposed to pipe a creek underground that crossed a hole right through the landing area.  Just this morning an issue arose regarding ACOE impacts somewhere else in the development and in the process the decision was made by the developer to "transfer" a portion of the proposed impact on the subject hole to the other part of the project and only pipe the creek halfway across the fairway.  In effect the hole lost about half of its fairway width in the landing area and will now sport a retaining wall along its narrowed edge and all of these decisions were made and only then corresponded to the course designer.  He seemed okay with the idea, but I was just surprised that the decision wasn't made via group discussion instead of the seemingly unilateral action.

Keith.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam F Collins,

If you take the King's shilling, you do the King's bidding.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Adam Collins:

You mention 3 types of client.  The first, one who hires you for your production capabilities but not your creative input.  That client in golf design is not possible.  I can not imagine that scenario. You do not go to the animal shelter, pick a dog, bring it home and tell it to be a cat.  There would be no way a client would hire me then dictate to me that they want massize dirt moved, big moguls, small greens and narrow fairways.  So a client who is a collaborator who has great ideas probably hires a likeminded architect.  You want someone that shares your passion, your ideas, but may have their own unusual way of looking at some things, and may be in the midst of an internal struggle and reconstruction of their own design philosophy.  The other two scenarios you offered are very common, and ultimately it matters little whose idea it was on any particualr matter.  

[Carlyle Rood]

Seven percent.

[Keith Williams]

Carlyle,

I think your numbers are outdated, the latest studies have shown that the percentage has skyrocketed to 7.6%  

Keith.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

By the way Keith Williams, UT football sucks.  It has been way too long since a national title, and way too many Texas boys get recruited to Oklahoma from right under their noses.

[Keith Williams]

By the way Kelly Blake Moran, yes Texas football does suck, but the University of Tennessee football most certainly does not suck  

Though it has been a full six years since we won a national championship  

Keith.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Sorry Keith, I had a very narrow upbringing, I never knew there was another UT.  At least you guys know what it feels like to win one.

[Tom_Doak]

I have heard stories about this from every angle.

On one well-known course, the owner said to me that once construction started, he did not really care for what was being built, but he had hired the architect in question and felt obliged to trust his professional judgment since it was the architect's reputation on the line.

In most cases, as Kelly says, an owner who has an idea of what he wants will hire an architect who has a similar vision.  I've never met a potential client who I thought really wanted to dictate the entire design ... well maybe one ... what they would like is to feel like they got some of their own ideas into the finished product, without doing something which didn't work, as Jeff aptly put it.

I don't think that it should be stated as strongly as Patrick states it, that we do the client's bidding ... but if we let it get to the point of their way or our way, their way will usually win, whether we carry it out or our successor does.

The most successful projects I've been on are the ones where the client tried to make it fun for everyone involved.  Jeff Shearer, at Lost Dunes, was a perfect example for us.  He was very involved at construction meetings to make sure his money was being well spent.  If there was something he wasn't sure he liked, he would just ask us to take a second look at it and be sure about what we were doing.  And he always thanked us for coming out to do our work.  As a result he got some of our most creative work.  

Another client who questioned our work all the way through would not have gotten the same product ... we would eventually give up trying to do something extra creative if we had to defend our every move.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Do clients ask for flow sheets to monitor costs to date versus budget.

Of all the areas of potential involvement, which one does the owner/developer get involved with the most ?

[moth]

We have clients who want to dictate everything we do and others who could'nt really give a toss and just trust us. The best client lies somewhere in the middle where they have a healthy interest in what is happening but are'nt forcing design solutions on you (you know we need a forced carry island green here sort of thing).

We had one client who wanted us to replicate 18 of the great holes of the wall and in the intial stages we had to placate him by saying this one was a copy of "the 18th at Pebble Beach - minus the ocean" etc. etc. However, he had an interesting site and over time we were able to convince him to build what best suited the site and not force a bunch of famous holes on it (18th at Pebble is quite hard to pull off in the middle of the jungle I can tell you). The point is that we had to stick with this client and gradually persuade him of the folly of his ideas while not alienating him (and having him believe that all changes were his idea anyway). If we had just told him his ideas were ridiculous at the start we would have either never got the job or been sacked.

A little diplomacy goes a long way in this job!

[Doug Siebert]

I've never met a potential client who I thought really wanted to dictate the entire design ... well maybe one ...

So, how was Donald Trump in person?

[TEPaul]

I think one of the best stories I've ever known on this particular subject involves Friar's Head and I really do hope that it's recorded soon and in detail. It very well may have been close to an ideal working relationship between an informed and dedicated client and two great architects and their interesting crew who apparently previous to the project didn't know each other. Coore and Crenshaw have a really unique way of taking some time (and sometimes a ton of it) to "get on the same page" with some of their clients and in this case the story of how that may have come to pass is, again, something that should be recorded in detail as it would be worth-while following in the future between other architects and other clients, in my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

We interviewed for a job a couple of months ago where the client said he would insist on a single hole in the design ... a double dogleg par five where a long hitter could drive straight for the green over an ocean cove.

I thought this was a ridiculous hole, though I did not say so at the time.

We didn't get the job ... I haven't heard whether Rees Jones or Tom Fazio did ... but I'm dying to find out how they handle that situation.  I doubt either will actually build the hole the way the client insisted he wanted it; but I would really like to know what they said to him to secure the job, and then how they will handle it from there.

More of the design business is psychology than most of you know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Sometimes timing, or order of presentation is one of the critical factors in getting a project.

If you were one of the first architects interviewed for the project and the developer put forth his views, which you objected to, perhaps after the second, third and forth architect objected, the developer modified or softened his views, which benefited those who followed you, thus enabling them to be awared the project.

Timing can be everything.

[moth]

Tom,

I am sure RTJ2 etc. would say whatever it takes to get the job - certainly not "that's a ridiculous idea". WHATEVER it takes just get the job ("what a great idea would work well" on this occasion)

After you have the job, then you can develop your relationship with the client to the point where you can find a nice way of saying "thats a ridiculous idea" or finding some technical reason why that idea does'nt work. Usually at this point they will trust you enough to follow your advice.

If not and they insist.......well you're screwed!

[Tom_Doak]

Pat,

We were actually the last architects to be interviewed for that job ... sort of a last-minute addition.  So, either the client was still looking for someone to agree with him, or the previous architects were following Brett's advice.

I suspect the latter.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I do know people who are ill, who continue to consult with doctors until they find one that agrees with their self diagnosed opinion.

It's unusual, but it happens.

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