[Mark_Fine]

Michael,
I don't know if I would use the term "memorable" to describe most Ross courses.  Like you, I've played and studied quite a few.  You are right in that he didn't seem to use hazards that stood out and really grabbed your attention (ones that you kept talking about after a round).  But there was almost always a steady diet of them and they are generally well placed.  I think of some Ross courses as solid tests of golf but not necessarily ones that inspire.  Does that make any sense?
Mark

[T_MacWood]

I suspect Ross's hazards match his personality: modest, frugal, natural and quiet confidence.

Some the differences in his hazards can be attributed to local...for example the sand falshing at Seminole, Palm Beach and Oyster Harbor. Some of it perhaps the personailty of his associates. Some of it the fashion of the day.

When playing Ross courses I'm often not conscious of an architect....I wonder if that was the way he preferred it.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
I tend to agree.  He just designed good solid golf courses without any frills.  

[TEPaul]

"I suspect Ross's hazards match his personality: modest, frugal, natural and quiet confidence."

Tom:

Does your research show if J.B. McGovern's personality matched Donald Ross's personality of modesty, frugality and natural and quiet confidence? Aronimink and Ron Prichard would've liked to know!    

Some, like William Flynn apparently thought J.B to be a bit more fussy and flowery, particularly in his bunkering! Maybe that's going too far or being too specific though. McGovern was the only architect as far as we can tell that Flynn had little respect for as an architect (even including Dick Wilson)! Why, is the question, of course. Maybe part of it was he didn't seem to like to follow orders and design plans like Dick Wilson!  

[michael j fay]

Mark:

I've played a great number of Ross courses and would say that not all of the are greatly memorable, yet with a few exceptions they were enjoyable.

I cannot understand why anyone would want to build a golf course that would feature memorable hazards unless they were trying to sell adjoining real estate to the people that play golf (as opposed to golfers).

There are a number of Ross courses that are truly memorable. I would put Salem, Brae Burn, Essex County, the Orchards, Wannamoisett, Newport,Wykagil, Oak Hill, Teugega, Aronimink, Plainfield, Pine Needles, Mid Pines, #2, Mimosa Hills, Highlands, East Lake, Athens CC and Seminole on that list. There are many others in the Midwest that would make the list.

These courses are memorable as 18 hole entities, not dependent on a certain freakazoid hazard that stands out like the naked chick at Mardi Gras.

Did you ever think that Mr. Ross designed his greens to be the ultimate hazards?

[BCrosby]

The McGovern thing deserves more attention than it got in Brad's book on Ross.

At Athens CC there are clear differences between the Ross drawings (they are very detailed) and the McGovern construction drawings.

McGovern toned down many of Ross's irregular green and bunker outlines. He made most more oval/rectangular. In addition, greens distinctly angled to the line of play in the Ross drawings are often less angled in the McGovern blue prints.

My suspicion has always been that McG changed Ross's drawings to facilitate course construction. Sometimes the changes were minor; sometimes they were not. My other suspicion is that Ross didn't care much about McG's changes.  

It was MacG (in most cases) who had to deal with the construction foremen and crews and most of them had never seen a golf course before. So maybe Ross intentionally gave him a lot of leeway. Or maybe Ross didn't bother to review McG's construction blueprints. He was, afterall, a very busy guy.

Bob

 

[SPDB]

Michael Fay -

You include Newport in your list of memorable Ross courses, can you tell me more about the extent of his involvement there vis-a-vis Tillinghast?

[michael j fay]

The debate on Newport is not really finished. The routing was Ross I believe. The bunkering is Tillinghast. The greens could have been built by either.
 
I have no nay or yea from any documents, so I well could be wrong.

[Mark_Fine]

Michael,
I've played most every course you mentioned and agree with you about your comment regarding "his greens" as hazards.  Some most definitely are hazards regardless of the USGA's official definition.  

However, I'm not sure I agree with you about only building memorable hazards to sell real estate?  Think about some of the most famous, most dramatic hazards and there is not a house to be seen.  

Surely not every hole should feature some wild jaw dropping hazard, but it is surprising that of all those Ross courses you mentioned, very few of us here could list even one hazard that is easily recognizable.  I'm not saying that is bad, it is just interesting.
Mark

[Brad Tufts]

I just returned from a 9-day jaunt in the Pinehurst area, and was fortunate enough to play Pine Needles twice in four days.

After seeing this thread, the hazard on the inside of the dogleg at number 10 at PN seems to be a "jaw-dropping" hazard compared to the subtle features Ross favored on most of his designs.  I believe it was recently restored to its original dimensions, and it currently sits about 220 yards from the current back tee, requiring a 250-ish yard carry to go over it.  Its depth of about 8-10 feet certainly gains my attention from the tee.

As the hole is now, at 485 yards and a par of 5, the hazard is not as important as it once was.  In the two times i played it this past week, I hit the green in two shots from the right side of it (not taking it on with the long carry), as you can still reach the green in two from the fairway without fooling with the bunker.  The other time I drove into the hazard, escaping with an 8-iron which i hit to the 80-yard mark.

However, with the new design-"restoration?" coming later this year, the hole will be extended to 529 yards.  Although the huge bunker will stay in its current position, a tee ball that finds it will have a more difficult lay-up shot (as my 8-iron would have been back at something like 140).  Also, if the player hits away from the trap, he/she will have a tough time hitting the green in two.  

In the future, this hazard, slightly outdated before, will be more in play, as it will have to be challenged if the player wants an easier shot at the green on the second shot.

Thoughts?

--Brad

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I don't know if the drawing you viewed reflects what went into the ground.

There is an aerial photo in the men's locker room that reflects
# 18 being a rather straight away hole, with the tee to the right of # 17 green.   The 18th green is where the practice tee now exists toward the left side of the clubhouse.

I believe the photo chronicles a course record round by Claude Harmon or some other famous pro.

[TEPaul]

Interesting Pinehurst last name you have there Brad! Are you a Tufts of the Pinehurst Tufts? If you are you may immediately take a seat at the head of the class of the Ross Society and you may sit in the comfortable wing-chair of honor in the Treehouse too--for at least a day!  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yes, I know where the old Ross's 18th green was before Dick Wilson moved it left nearer the dunes. Basically the old green was around where that little practice chipping bunker play green now is--it may even be part of the old 18th green.

This Ross drawing shows the old back tee to be fairly on center to the fairway, just a tad to it's left. However, the shorter tees to the left is a good 50-60 yards left of the back tee (on the drawing) so I'd suspect the 17th green is probably just about between them. That would, as you said, put that orginal back Ross tee to the right (not the left) of the 17th green.

[Brad Tufts]

Tom-

I believe I am related somehow, closer than just sharing a last name.  James Tufts was from Boston, where my family is from, so I wouldn't be surprised if I was relatively closely removed.  However, I don't know the literal connection, but I have been treated better-than-most for merely having the name a couple of times.  The person who runs the Pinecrest Inn is a Tufts, and when my father has made reservations there, he has heard "see ya soon cuz" jokingly at the end of conversation.  My favorite thing i've learned is that when playing No. 2 a few years ago, the caddies pointed out to the left of the 9th where there used to be an additional par three just for Mr. Tufts to play to his house after 9!

-Brad

p.s. others--sorry to throw this in an unrelated thread.

[TEPaul]

Brad Tufts:

In that case you just come on over here and sit right down in this comfortable wing-chair of honor in the treehouse and you just relax in that comfy chair of honor for more than a day. See if you can't just sit there for an entire week!  

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