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Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #100 on: March 07, 2004, 02:10:11 AM »
If it makes you feel better, I have trouble carrying the wash
on #14 from the back tee too. ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #101 on: March 07, 2004, 02:17:10 AM »
Heck, I have trouble carrying it from the Whites!

One day I'm going to have a approach shot less then 300 yards on that MF'er! :o

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #102 on: March 07, 2004, 03:50:53 AM »
Heck, I have trouble carrying it from the Whites!

One day I'm going to have a approach shot less then 300 yards on that MF'er! :o

Things I learned today at Rustic -

1. The 7th fairway is COMPLETELY gone- almost sad to look at...

2. Even if I nut it, I cant clear the wash on 14 from the back of the blue tee box (blacks were not all the way back) if I hit it on a line 10 yards left of the trees right at the 100 yd bunker.

3. There is no way I'd ever consider carrying the wash with a Driver on 7 if they had made the native grass area beyond the mounds/bunker "environmentally sensitive"

4. Things will be alot easier for people playing friendly matches if they somehow note what you can and cant take a ground under repair drop from...the dirt in and around some of the fairways, namely, 13, certainly LOOKS like ground under repair :D

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #103 on: March 08, 2004, 09:21:52 AM »
Tom, Please do recognize my ever-continuing flair for the dramatic. It may not be fear per-say, but it is a gut wrenching excitement that gets the heart pumping. Isnt't ha what great golf should be all about?

Yes.  Gotcha.  We be two peas in a pod there, bruthah.

TH

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #104 on: March 08, 2004, 10:20:52 AM »
Dave,
Once again, its all about the green. there are many features or shapings on this green that dictate how you wan to come-in on it for all your strengths and weaknesses. It becomes "Should I stay or should I go," and makes you want to plan how your going to play the hole from the tee.

The decision is this:

Lay-up with a iron in front of the wash and have a semi-blind (you can see the flag, but can't see the surface of the green) shot into the shallow side of the green, where its tough, at least for me to get it close.  If you take it over the wash on the drive, you have the length of the green now in your favor, as well as you can better negotiate the "mump" that exists on the right side of this somewhat perched green.

The negatives for going either way is, if you chose to lay-up your going to have a shot that may not hold and go over the top and giving yourself an even harder shot to get it back on to a green that isn't generous with one-putts. If you miss with the drive going over the wash, you either have the penalty of being in the wash or through the fairway where you'll have a more precarious lie, thus a harder approach in.

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #105 on: March 08, 2004, 10:34:06 AM »
Shivas my man, we have gone full circle re this - all of that is asked and answered several times already.  Now I sure as heck don't remember the green all that well to comment on what Tommy said, other than it sounds right and I believe him.  But for me, it comes down to this:

1. The carry to the right isn't all that big of a deal - the issue is going long and through far more than dumping it in the wash.  So we're not talking a huge amount of risk (note - this assumes one is playing proper tees - which really is blue for me - put me way back at the stones and the risk gets higher, changes everything - but for a long hitter like you, the distance isn't an issue even from the stones).

2. It is most definitely an easier shot coming from the right, as has been explained many times.  The shot from the left isn't all world difficult, but enough to be problematic, and in any case that's the the biggest issue...

3.  Bottom line is you're RARELY gonna make 3 coming from the left.  If you need a 3, you pretty much have to go right.  If 4 is all that's required, than that tips the balance and left becomes more attractive.

That's it in a nutshell... although pin positions can change all this as well...  So it's not nearly as simple as saying "if you can drive the green you go right, if not you go left".  Not even close.  I couldn't drive the green if you gave me a bazooka, but I'd venture to say I'm still gonna go right easily half the time I play the hole.

TH

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #106 on: March 08, 2004, 11:04:44 AM »
It is a marvelous hole.  But again, all this applies only if one CARES about one's round and is actually thinking.  Let's just say that I'd be very disappointed if you ever go left - that means you are taking the game far more seriously than I like you to.   ;)

Interesting also - I can't think of many other holes where choice of TEE makes so much difference.  That is, the hole can be ruined if people are playing improper tees.  For example, put me at the stones and it's hard for me to believe I go right unless it's a pure what the hell shot - the risk is just too great, as I don't carry the ball 260.  But put me at the blues - where 220 is more the carry I try (closer to the bridge) - longer than that if I go more left, toward the green - and all the choices are in full play.  Of course it matters not for the big hitters - all choices are in full play for them regardless.  But for everyone else, well... if I hear someone say it's a no brainer to go left because they can't make the carry going right, my answer would be they should move up to the proper tee.

TH
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 11:05:30 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #107 on: March 08, 2004, 11:05:07 AM »
Ryan,
To add, the best way of looking at this is from Geoff Shackelford's website:

As Rustic Canyon celebrates one year of play, many continue to rave about superintendent Jeff Hicks’s conditioning efforts.

Yet a few brave people ask, what’s with the brown patches off to the sides of most of the fairways?

Actually, the areas of exposed sandy soil, offset by patches of clumpy fescue grass (and the occasional weed), were supposed to be even more prevalent in the design. Believe it or not, we like those areas and wanted more of them! Here’s why.

Because the sandy soil at Rustic Canyon is similar to the sandbelt courses of Australia where such exposed “crunchy” areas add to the character of the golf, we hoped to see a similar form of “ranch golf” transported to the United States in a climate and setting that was conducive to such a style.

Rustic Canyon sits on a sandy flood plain and is surrounded by coastal sage scrub. That’s a mix of plants and soils similar to the look and feel of only three other Mediterranean climates in the world: Australia, southern Italy and the lower tip of South America.

Still, who cares, right? Why not have grass all the way to the edges?

The first priority was not aesthetic, but one involving function.

We did not want the irrigation system turning the brown, crusty native areas into rainforests.

Jim Wagner spent a great deal of time working with Jeff Hicks and irrigation contract Charlie Amos to make sure that irrigation water did not directly hit the native grass areas that border the wide fairways. Nothing is worse than playing a course where the immediate native areas are lush from too much overspray, while twenty yards inside the natives a ball is easily found and played. It looks bad and plays even worse.

But we also knew that with the dark green rye fairways, the stark look of going immediately from lush green fairways to brown native areas was something we didn’t care for on many modern courses bordered by prairie grasses. And with the sandy soil of “Happy Camp,” the hope was that the irrigation system could be laid out to only have “overspray” hitting these transition areas.

If the course was seeded properly with fescue around the edges (which it was), the dirt areas would support the occasional clumpy, snowball shaped fescues that would take hole, while still providing a sandy, tight lie for recovery play.

Now, the areas that were created by cart traffic were not by design. But we do believe that as long as the fairways, greens, tees and approaches are in as fine a condition as they are now, most golfers will understand that these “brown patches,” (transitional areas in doublespeak), were intentional.

Hopefully the look will be accepted based the “rustic” aesthetic it adds to the course and not seen as faulty irrigation design.



Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #108 on: March 08, 2004, 11:27:20 AM »
3.  Bottom line is you're RARELY gonna make 3 coming from the left.  If you need a 3, you pretty much have to go right.  If 4 is all that's required, than that tips the balance and left becomes more attractive.

So are you saying you think this hole would be better as a match play hole near the end of a round?  Maybe RC would be a better match play course with the 9's reversed?

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #109 on: March 08, 2004, 11:35:19 AM »
Joe:

I didn't say that at all nor did the thought occur to me until you mention this - but it is an interesting thought!  #7 is a great match play golf hole, for all these reasons.  Oh heck yeah - the guy with the honor as a big decision, and then the opponent plays off of that - or not.

But is it great enough to warrante switching the nines?  Hmmm... the current #16 is pretty damn great also....

I guess the more I think about it, in a perfect world of match play, it might work slightly better with the nines reversed.  But then you factor in location, and I think it's a net negative.  That is, #1 tee is right there next to the clubhouse, #10 is down the road on the other side of the wash... That would seem to make the change prohibitive in everything except the future Walker Cup or US Amateur to be held at Rustic.   ;)

Brian_Gracely

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #110 on: March 08, 2004, 11:38:09 AM »
Why does a "great match-play hole" have to come late in the round?  All the holes count the same in match play and a momentum swing can come anytime.  

It would be interesting to know how many matches are settled before the 16th hole.

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #111 on: March 08, 2004, 11:41:00 AM »
BG - that's a good point also.  I guess it's just more dramatic if they come late, as a "decider"... but that's all I can think of.  And someone posted stats re this recently - that is, certain percent of matches finishing before 18, 17, 16... and it was pretty high in each case.

TH

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #112 on: March 08, 2004, 12:43:04 PM »
Its not that hard to make 3 from the left.  You just have to be able to control your distance with a wedge and make a 10 foot putt.

There is a big mound at the front of the green coming from the left.  As long as you can hit a high wedge with some spin, the ball will bounce forward off the slope and then stop when it reaches the main part of the green.  From there, it is just an excercise in making a putt.  I find that, if hit correctly, the ball will actually feed towards the hole if you land it on the downslope of the mound.

However, if that shot is difficult for you, then you are better off clearing the wash and trying to chip on a make 3.  

Shivas - I don't think this hole is drivable from the black tees.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2004, 12:44:18 PM by Dan Grossman »

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2004, 12:45:55 PM »
Its not that hard to make 3 from the left.  You just have to be able to control your distance with a wedge and make a 10 foot putt.

That may be true for the strong wedge player... but isn't it still quite a bit easier from the right?

In any case, this is just more evidence to me of the greatness of the golf hole - here are discussing it for 5 pages, agreeing on a lot, disagreeing on a lot... coming up with multiple ways to play it depending on skill and situation... all these to me are very good things.

TH

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2004, 12:51:01 PM »
Its easier to make a three from the right, if you are a good chipper.  I have a hard time hitting a 70 yd runner from a side hill lie to a very contoured green.  

Again, it comes down to the player and how his skill set matches to the hole.

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2004, 01:06:11 PM »
DG - concur.  But I'd also say a majority of golfers would find it easier from the right, because the ball is tougher to stop coming from the left and your vision is partially obscured.

But of course a majority of golfers can't get it to the right unless they play a tee short enough to connect with their abilities...

BTW, I'm never gonna fault the good player who chooses to go left - especially long and way left, which remains intriguing to me.  I might call him a wuss, in a good-natured dig at his "smart but fearful" choice, but I'd also probably lose the hole to him, so the dig would be the recourse of a defeated man.

 ;D

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