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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Critique or Praise this hole ...
« on: March 02, 2004, 08:40:12 PM »
I have played this hole 8 times now and still have not completed the hole in a traditional manner (drive in the fairway, 2nd shot on the green and 2 putts).  I have had one birdie, via an approach shot out of the junk to a foot or so ... with the rest bogeys in a recovery mode ...

I'll reveal the course later but it is not famous nor highly played, if at all by the treehouse gang.

Can someone guess the architect?

Tell me what you like and dislike about the hole.  I'll give some commentary on each of the photos ...

420 yards from the tips ... if the tee blocks are set hard to the left, the shrubs will effect a "Gib-type" low screamer



From the middle of the landing area, 200 yard to the middle of the green (yes, the fairway does snake around the shrub covered creek on the left, and there is a grassy sunken area to the right of the fairway):



From the middle of the landing area 175 to the middle of the green:



From the middle of the landing area, 150 yards to the green (the fairway is about 20 yards wide at this point) and you are aside the large oak:



The green complex from behind.  On this day, the hole location is to the far right off camera (extreme left side from the fairway).  There is considerable slope, back to front on this green and it is not very deep in relationship to its width width a ridge running from 6 to 12.

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2004, 09:03:40 PM »
Mike,

I'll have a go.

A 420 yard hole that forces me to lay up off the tee is not one of my favorites. I would guess a 2 iron to 3 wood type tee shot? Also, the hole seems quite claustrophobic until near the green. Is the approach to the green as steep as it appears? If so, that really toughens the 200- 180 yard approach with long-ish irons. Short would stay short while carrying the green would be tough to hold.

 I wonder why the fairway didn't also go to the right of the tree? It would allow every type shot to be played, giving the player options.

I have no idea as to who the architect might be. I might not mind this hole depending on where it fell in the round and how the flow of the holes is. Pictures are somewhat deceiving sometimes!

Thanks for the exercise,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2004, 09:20:57 PM »
I think cutting a tree down is permitted if you hug it first.


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2004, 09:22:55 PM »
I haven't played there in sometime, and I'm not sure if this is the same course, but it could certainly be the same type of hole MANUFACTURED by RTJII at Cota De Caza's North Course, whch judging from the weather in the picture could mean you were in SoCal in the last week and a half and didn't let me know it, which of course I would be somewhat miffed, because then I could have had you sample the top notch Margarita recipe I have so much bragged about which isn't all that far from here.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2004, 09:29:59 PM »
Carlyle,
Cutting an Oak Tree down like that in SoCal is grounds for either a public tar & feathering and a quick ride out of town on a rail, or some local conservationist locking himself to the tree and rallying the troops to prevent it from happening.

But I suspect this isn't SoCal, but in fact a NoCal RTJII course, and frankly, I think it would be O.K. because all of the tree huggers are pretty busy at the moment, getting married as quick as they can down at City Hall.

Not that there is anything wrong with that........  

 

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2004, 09:34:36 PM »
Carlyle,
Cutting an Oak Tree down like that in SoCal is grounds for either a public tar & feathering and a quick ride out of town on a rail, or some local conservationist locking himself to the tree and rallying the troops to prevent it from happening.

In Georgia we just hug it before we cut it down.

In Southern California, I guess you have to fornicate with it before you can remove it!  ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2004, 09:35:47 PM »
Now I know what that knot hole in that tree was for! 8)

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2004, 09:42:26 PM »
Mike,

Architect?..... Can't tell.

Like about the hole.....The centercut knoll on the green and the large fringe areas.

Dislike about the hole.....Cart Path eyesore, homes encroaching on the edge of the hole, containment mounding on the right to keep backyards free of balls, hideous lone oak tree, trees all down left side narrowing the hole and forcing a player to hit towards a tree and out-of-bounds.

I could go on but I'll leave it at that.


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2004, 09:51:40 PM »
Dislike about the hole.....Cart Path eyesore, homes encroaching on the edge of the hole, containment mounding on the right to keep backyards free of balls, hideous lone oak tree, trees all down left side narrowing the hole and forcing a player to hit towards a tree and out-of-bounds.

I bet it's a lovely view from the homes, however.  I bet the homeowners appreciate the borrowed scenery.

JakaB

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2004, 09:58:46 PM »
Is it the 14th or 15th at Pasa that has that same fairway roll...there used to be a pic of me on this site hitting out of it..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 09:59:25 PM by JakaB »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2004, 10:01:24 PM »
If this is indeed CDC, just to let you know, before the homes were there, the right side had a really narrow fairway cut to the right of the oak, and it was a path I had once taken. Since that time, much has changed on the course as homes now obliterate it and lost, is much of the beauty of Cota De Caza as a whole.

Like I said, I'm not sure if this is Cota De Caza #2, but it certainly resembles it. At least from my fast fleeting memory.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2004, 10:31:08 PM »
Praise!

Reminds me of the good Doctors work at Titirangi, "fringe of heaven", in New Lynn? near Auckland New Zealand.  I believe its the 14th hole, could be 15, which over the years has been named "wrecked".  The course is oft referred to as one of the longest short course you'll ever play.

Pros of the hole:

Forces player to consider not just directional, but linear strategy / decision making.  Having the nerve / skill to place a ball on the left most edge of a fairway may be one of the toughest baits in golf as the draw may roll through and out and the fade needs to be started outside the fairway.  In addition, the angle of the green relative to the shape required for any shot mid fairway and right creates a very shallow green.  You know the kind that should be extinct.  (Sorry wrong thread, I'll go there next.)

A great shot tester and a punisher of mindless smash ballers!  We need more of this.  Two thumbs up!!

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2004, 11:09:53 PM »
I praise Tommy on his memory.  Good work!

I haven't played it here nor been there, but isn't the hole on the other side of the trees (to the left) very similar in design?  (tree on right side of landing area, left side of fairway blocked by trees, mid-length par 4.....)

I don't have a problem with one side of the fairway being blocked from view.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2004, 11:11:51 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 11:41:53 PM »
Scott, I think it was #2 to be exact. If it isn't it, its been redone somewhere in NoCal, Mike B's territory. So much so that he lifted his leg and peed on that tree. ;D

"Billy Bell," Redanman. "Billy Bell."

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2004, 11:50:40 PM »
Tommy,

I checked, it's CDC.  There's a hole much like this one on the other side of the trees.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2004, 12:11:18 AM »
Carlyle,  if you could jimmy in a GCT cresting wavebunker in that interesting depression with a bit of a finger reaching into the bowels of the fairway LZ, and more flash as you go to the right, I'd think you'd have a pretty interesting hole. ;D 8)

Tommy, forgive this butchery - but something like this:
« Last Edit: March 03, 2004, 12:37:48 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2004, 12:55:15 PM »
Dick, Good represenation, but strategically, I think if you were somewhat blinded by the trees, it should be to an open at the front, with a bunker guarding the player chosing the right side. The bunker you put in there could be pretty good if the green were configured that way.

From memory, the green is quite raised, or it takes a drastic drop and then rises to a plateau. I have both butchered and played well on this hole, the five times I have played it, the last time, probably around late 1988/early 1989, when I managed to coerce the boss into going out there for a round.  

I had a magazine with a picture of Coto De Caza in fine looking form on the back cover, I took him to the back of our shop (term for an electrical contractors office) and said, "It day doesn't get better then this does it?" and then placed the picture in front of his face.  He said to me "Give them a call!" I did and with-in minutes we were on our way to South Orange County.

Personally, I love the place, but they have ruined it with housing, which was the original intent. When tI first played there, the only house really out there was General William Lyon's--a major home developer in SoCal--whose house looks like Tara from Gone with the Wind, up on a rising hill. You can see it off of the 11th or 12th hole.

I know some guys that worked on it, and they said it was quite the shack.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2004, 01:06:40 PM »
I haven't played there in sometime, and I'm not sure if this is the same course, but it could certainly be the same type of hole MANUFACTURED by RTJII at Cota De Caza's North Course

This is the reason why he is the Emperor ...

This is the 17th hole at Coto de Caza North, a RTJ Jr. design in southern Orange County.

The green has a semi-redan feel to it as everything moves left and back ... in firm conditions, a back left hole location is more benign than others.

Yes, there are homes on the right and the routing is out and back on both sides of the creek.  The North is the more severe of the 2 courses, both from a driving perspective and the green complexes.

Scott mentioned that the hole on the other side of the creek is similar to #17 and it is, although shorter but with a tree on the right the effects the drive, not the approach.

To Jeff's point, clearing the creek of the brush would not diminish the importance of an accurate drive as the landing area is not all that wide, and it would bring the creek more into play as the favored side would be the left.

Mike
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Critique or Praise this hole ...
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2004, 01:20:10 PM »
Well Mike, I told you about my memory! So it was the 17th and not the 2nd. My bad, and I apologize to all for slacking!

And to let all know, on a day like today, CDC would be a great place to be playing golf, but I'm on my way to Rustic Canyon, which to me is way better and in my opinion deserves to be a Top 25 rated golf course! But thats my opinion and we know what that is worth!

And thats all I have to say about that.

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