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Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« on: June 21, 2001, 05:16:00 PM »

1. No Open has been played on a Dye course. It might be a nice tribute--he is 75.

2. Course reportedly improved from 1991

3. They reportedly are replacing the old clubhouse with an improved, larger one.

4. Greater Charleston infrastructure adequate.

5. Room on site for corporate concerns.

5. It's long enough and challenging enough.

6. It's a great course! (I was careful not to say "track"    )

7. I think the average viewer would enjoy
watching it played at that venue, with an eye perhaps comparing it to its Ryder Cup debut.

8. It's pretty accessible to a lot of people.


Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Geeze, I like your way of thinking...  We've started construction of a 320-room luxury hotel on the Ocean near Turtle Point's No. 16 which may help.  It will be done the Summer of 2003.  FYI-- There's a good chance we will be closing The Ocean Course next summer (2002) to do some Dye requested tweeking including stripping the greens and replacing them with TifEagle Bermuda, altering some of the marsh crosses, laser-leveling the tees and we are considering stripping the entire course and resodding it with paspalum, a high-salt-tolerant type of grass that Pete Dye loves (currently on Teeth-of-the-Dog and Bahamas' Ocean Club.  We currently are experimenting with it on the back side of the driving range near the practice green and on the fairway landing area on No. 2.

john f

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2001, 05:52:00 AM »
Love the idea. How tough would 17 play w/ the open on the line! We saw how the pro's gagged on 3 foot puts last week, what would they do on that tee shot.

A few comments;
-I remember hearing that Dye designed it to play 7500+ yards, Is that still true?
-Can the site handle the foot traffic through the dunes? Afterwards it would look pretty beat-up.
-Is 18 strong enough to finish the open?
-How would the par 3's #8 and #14 play? I remember w/out any wind they might be pretty benign.

Love the concept!!


Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2001, 06:45:00 AM »
The course can handle any spring-like effect or Large Core Multi-Component golf balls you can throw at it.  From its tips, it can play 7,780 yards.  Pete Dye designed the back tees to compensate for the near perpetual windy conditions so the tees can be moved back when playing with the wind.  The pros did eat it up at the '97 World Cup under benign conditions but the tees were only set at about 6,800 for, as Colin Montgomery put it, "the lesser nations."  No. 8 can play 195 yards from the tips and No. 14, which Ran thinks is one of the best Par-3s around, can play as long as 219 yards.

As far as No. 18, it can be stretched out to 491 yards.  And, just ask Hale Erwin or Bernhard Langer on its challenge as a finishing hole...

We had 25,000 spectators for the '91 Ryder Cup and it didn't take very long for the dunes to reclaim their shape.  In fact, the dune vegetation took off after the event.  The foot traffic helped set the seeds deeper into the sand and the sea oats and wire grass had a bumper year...


Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2001, 07:32:00 AM »
Mike @ Kiawah--

The Ocean Course would make a great Open venue that would give the pros fits if the wind blows and they play it all the way back.

I'm also glad to hear that you are planning on redoing the greens.  I played there on Masters Saturday and they weren't their best.  Do you know what was the cause?  I asked and no one seemed to know.

The course is plenty long enough although I think some of the fairways would need to be narrowed.  


Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2001, 07:46:00 AM »
As with most of the courses in the Lowcountry, they suffered through a very harsh winter.  Add to that, we didn't overseed until November which was followed by a number of freezes that kept the overseed from germinating.  We're correcting that this year by overseeding all the courses earlier (Osprey and Oak Oct. 1-4 and Ocean, Turtle and Cougar Oct. 23-26), hopefully giving enough time for germination.  The greens are in great condition now, though...

Fred C

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2001, 09:45:00 AM »
Mike:

My wife and I will be at Kiawah (and playing the Ocean Course) in early July.  Aside from the golf, what's not to be missed while there?

FJC


Mike@Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2001, 09:54:00 AM »
The natural beauty of Kiawah is what keeps our non-golfers coming back year after year.  If you're the outdoorsy type, take one of our river kayaking tours to see the Lowcountry's nature up close.  If you're more cosmopoltian, take a day trip to Charleston, one of the most beautiful cities in the U.S. (ranked right behind San Francisco and New Orleans by readers of Conde Nast Traveler magazine).  Beautiful homes, great restaurants and wonderful shopping.  As the locals say, Charleston -- where the Ashley and Cooper rivers meet for form the Atlantic Ocean!  

We also feature that short-pants sissy game--tennis.  Tennis Magazine ranks us the #5 tennis resort in the U.S.

But it's golf that makes us king.  Don't miss the recently renovated Turtle Point.  Nicklaus came back and redid all the green complexes and bunkering on the course and we feel it's now one of the best Courses in South Carolina.  We also have Fazio's Osprey Point and Player's Cougar Point, as well as Oak Point, designed by regional architect Clyde Johnston.

Have a great trip!


Mike@Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2001, 10:42:00 AM »
In such an event, I don't think we'd have any rough at all -- just very fast, hard fairways.  We actually grew the rough to make the course more playable to the average resort player.  It keeps balls from rolling into the dunes/marshes.  For an Open, we'd mow it down to force players to risk trouble while trying to hit the best positions to approach the greens.  The fairways are plenty wide to make it playable in the wind.  But to score there, players need to be approaching greens from the proper angle...

Matt_Ward

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
Add my vote for The Ocean Course. I've played the course at least a half a dozen times and always enjoy the challenge.

I also agree that the 14th is a helluva par-3! Also, the varying wind conditions will only add to the course and the difficulty.

I only hope the USGA would continue with the "outside the box" thinking that was responsible for taking the Open at Bethpage Black in 02. The Ocean Course has the muscle to give the best players in the world all they can handle. My only suggestion is that the course be kept as firm and fast as possible. There have been times when I played the course when the Bermuda was too soft.

Finally, as a Carolina graduate, I can speak to the great qualities that make Charleston such a wonderful town to visit. Has the facility tendered an official invitation to the USGA? Is a PGA Championship invitation in the cards as well should an Open not take place???


Mike@Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2001, 10:59:00 AM »
We've advised all the proper authorities of our availability...  In fact, we're close to closing on a couple of high-profile events scheduled for the next year or two...  Announcement to follow soon...

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »
Mike-
My group has re-booked the Ocean Course for next April, as well as 3 others @ Kiawah.
Looking forward to it. Just one question:
I always find it interesting when an architect
re-designs his green complexes, as Nicklaus just did for you at Turtle Pt. I wonder Did
he do a poor job the first time around? If
so, why do they want him back? Or maybe
there's another explanation.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2001, 02:56:00 PM »
I watched the celebrity tour event on the golf channel that was held there this winter and it made me yearn to go back there.  I really have a hard time deciding which Pete Dye golf course would make more sense for a major, Whistling Straits or Ocean for proper majoresque test of golf. From the spectators point of view regarding mobility around the course, I think Ocean is probably better.  I predict crowd management difficulty at WS at the PGA. There might be many sprained ankles and other crowd interference-distraction to play at WS.  Ease of travel out to the Island by large crowds from Charleston is another matter.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dick_Groff

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »
It would be a terrible venue for the open...I was at the war by the shore in 91 [and played it in 93] and there was no place to stand to watch.  I think they let in 20,000 peolpe and it was jammed!  40,000 would be a nightmare.

Great course to play.  Terrible spectator venue.


John_McMillan

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »
While the Ocean Course does have resistance to scoring in its favor, the points against an Open at Kiawah are -

*  June is part of Hurricane season in Charleston (not the heaviest part, but still part).  

*  Even without hurricanes, there is a possibility of strong wind.  The USGA loves (demands?) the long rough / narrow fairway set-up for its Open championship, and I don't think the Ocean course would be playable under such a set-up in higher wind.

*  25,000 is a small crowd for an Open - how would the course accomodate a larger crowd - and where would they stay when not on the course?  The shuttle system to Kiawah island would not work with a crowd nearly twice that size.


Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2001, 05:42:00 AM »
Turtle Point is over 20 years old.  Over that period of time greens get a lot of "Bermuda creep" where the size of the green change.  Plus, 20 years of sand splashing out of bunkers also changes the contours of greens.  

Turtle was one of Jack's earliest designs.  He was still strongly influenced by his work at Harbour Town with Dye where he didn't move much dirt around.  It plays to the contours of the natural topography.  There's no contrived mounding and such which was incorporated into many of his later designs (which he is now moving away from...).  However, many of the greens sat exactly at fairway level.  His work last summer raised a number of the green complexes up from fairway.  But, the highest was only 4 feet, keeping the original feel of evolving from the land, not being forced upon it.  In addition, Jack angled some of the greens so that pin placements can be better viewed from approach areas.

Re: crowds for an Open at The Ocean Course, there are few logistical problems that can't be overcome with the proper planning.  We've had various events over the past couple of years to give us "test runs" of what works and doesn't work with transportation, parking, crowd management, etc.  We feel that should an Open or PGA come here, we can handle it.


JerryK

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
Hey Mike, I have gone to Kiawah with my family for vacation in August the last few years and all of us loved it.  I have a son who is now 7 and plays golf and last year the pro at Osprey let me take him out to play and charged us a minimal cart fee.  He was thrilled to see the alligators and I could not have been happier as the pro showed a great deal of class and encouraged my son to play from the kids tees.
    I have not played the 2 private courses although I have had the opportunity as the fee was rather steep and the feedback was not very positive.  What do you think?  

Paul Perrella

  • Karma: +0/-0
Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »

    Just my opinion but I have played 11 of Pete Dye's best courses and for my money The Golf Club is his best. Just thought it should have some mention.

Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2001, 09:39:00 AM »
JerryK--

Glad you enjoyed Osprey.  We try to encourage youth golf throughout the summer with special rates and youth tees, etc.

The River Course is a bit better than Osprey (although you didn't hear that from me...).  You can learn more about Cassique from Andrew Bernstein's earlier thread on this site (including pictures) about golf in the Lowcountry....


Turbo

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »
Mike,

What is your actual email address?


Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2001, 05:01:00 AM »

Mike @ Kiawah

Why not The Ocean Course for the 2006 Open?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2001, 05:57:00 AM »
Here's an interesting article on the course plucked from the Charleston Post & Courier during the 1997 World Cup:

Ocean Course continues to change itself
By: Ken Burger
Originally Published in Charleston Post & Courier on: 11/23/97
Page: I1


KIAWAH ISLAND - Unlike most golf courses that are the same every time you walk up to the first tee box, the Ocean Course is a living, breathing animal that changes with the whims of nature.
Not only does it change from year to year with the shifting sands and tides, but from day to day. And, sometimes, from hour to hour.
Those who have played this Pete Dye layout know the best time to attack this course is early in the morning before the winds pick up. That alone, can be a 10-stroke swing in your score.
The direction of the wind can also have an impact on the course. When it's blowing straight up and down the seaside links it makes half the course easier and the other half virtually impossible to play.
Worse yet is when the wind blows across the golf course that runs parallel with the sea. When that happens, tee shots are simply a geometric exercise in guessing how far out over the marsh to play it.
``When there are crosswinds, you have to start your drives out over the junk and hope they come back on the fairway,'' Davis Love III explained during World Cup play this week. ``And, sometimes you hit it too far out to the wind side and it doesn't come back.
``When the wind blows here, it certainly makes you think more. Tee shots are harder and a little tricky.''
`A walking course'
All of this makes Dye, the course designer, smile a bit as he watches the world's best golfers struggle with the natural forces that enhance his creation.
And while it was his hand that laid this golf course down in the dunes for the 1991 Ryder Cup Matches, he knows he has no control over the subtle changes that Mother Nature decides to introduce over time.
Dye, in fact, calls this a ``walking golf course.''
By that, he means that it changes as time and tides and wind take their toll on the golf course. It will, for instance, build up on one end of the course as northerly winds push sand onto the course and elevate certain areas that originally were meant to be lower.
Also, there is the constant shifting of the sand dunes and the sea oats and the tidal creeks that have little respect for something as whimsical as a golf course.
They will, therefore, encroach into areas that just a few years or months ago were soft landing areas for wayward shots.
Kinder, gentler
And a lot has changed since the Americans won the 1991 Ryder Cup here in what then was called, ``The War by the  Shore,'' when the Ocean Course was dubbed the hardest golf course in the world while humbling some of the world's best.
Among them were Scotland's Colin Montgomerie who has returned to represent his country this week in the World Cup of Golf.
``This is nothing like the same course as 1991,'' Montgomerie commented after the first day of competition when low scores ruled the day. ``No one shot 63 six years ago I can assure you.
``It is a much softer golf course, a lot easier and a lot fairer as well.''
This kinder, gentler Ocean Course is a relief to those international pros who have to record every stroke during this tournament.
Because it has been shortened for this competition and the winds have held off, no one yet has recorded a score in triple digits.
Pristine and wild
Saturday, however, a new and different obstacle came into play for the 32 teams competing here - fog.
Shortly after 9 a.m. a heavy bank of fog rolled over the golf course causing play to be suspended for more than two hours. But it did not stop the German team from stepping out to a commanding lead as they enter final round play today.
Another example of how this golf course is a living, breathing thing. It has a conscience, a memory, it ages, it becomes vulnerable and it lashes out with fury at times.
And early in the mornings or late in the afternoons, you can actually hear it moaning under the weight of mowers and the restraint of maintenance machinery as it strains to return to its natural state.
Because you can tell that if we left it alone, in a matter of months it would become a windswept seascape, as pristine and wild as the day before man found it.


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