[TEPaul]

Man, although I've never seen anything he's ever done the work of Todd Echenrode is rising meteorically in my mind, particularly this Barona Creek!

It's not just that a number of well informed people seem to be saying that his work is good, it's the specific reasons they are saying his work is so good that's really fascinating me!

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Somebody chimed in here a while back that Keiser may be considering him for the 3rd course at Bandon. I hope he at least gets the opportunity to walk the land and present a plan. He's earned that. (I envision something like the inland stretch of Cypress Point.) I only hope that the rumor of a cart path and carts doesn't come to fruition.
I'm also waiting for Todd E. and Associates to get a web site up (perhaps thru Dan King Enterprises).
 

[Gib_Papazian]

Slag,
Mike Keiser told me a couple months back that the 3rd course was going to have to have cart paths - understandable given the possibility of market saturation of walkers only courses at the resort.

He solicited (and wrote down) some suggestions of guys we thought ought to be contacted. He is probably not going to use Doak or Kidd because he variety was important. Although whoever it is will have a tough act to follow. Plus the land is not  as blindingly spectacular.

The names bandied about were Gil Hanse, John Harbottle, Todd Eckenrode and even Neal Meagher. Personally, I would say the possibility of Mike hiring a big name (i.e. Fazio or Nicklaus etc) would be very slim. Look at the success he has had staying with relative unknowns? I think he is a genius.

Tom,
I have not been over to Antioch to see Todd's new one yet, but Huckster was very impressed. That said, if his stuff is half as good as Barona Creek, this guy is eventually going to be a household word. The bunkering is really that good. He also has a sense of how to arrange the geometry of each hole to set up plenty of options while resisting the temptation for pointless eye candy. My goodness, does it look good.

Todd is a product of his unbringing though - if you don't like Mackenzian bunkers, you won't like his work. But if you don't like Mackenzie, likely you've never heard of GCA either.

C'mon out and I'll meet you in San Diego! Plus, you can meet the great Naccarato - an experience that is worth the trip in itself. Maderas CC is worth a look too - even though the owner Neal worked for has the yips and wants to blow up three of his best greens.

I'll bet we could lure Todd down to play with us. I warn you though, he is tough.

[Josh_Taylor]

I had the pleasure of playing Barona Creek with Todd Eckenrode recently.  It is as good as everyone says.  I loved the course.  The layout takes advantage of the site perfectly, the bunkering is wonderful, the strategy employed is refreshing and challenging and the green complexes are outstanding.  Todd did a wonderful job with Barona and deserves every bit of credit that comes his way. The only thing I didn't like was that he shot 31 the back side to get my cash.

He is doing great work and hopefully will get many more jobs to show off his talents, he deserves it after all the hard work he has put in.  

He is also a great player, and a great guy to go along with all that too.

[TEPaul]

Josh Taylor:

I remember you from Archipalooza--if I'm not mistaken you're the one who hit an 8 iron (2nd shot) into #3 or #12 at Doak's Pacific Dunes (#3 I believe) thereby ruining Doak's day (and leading him to believe that the course might be some kind of failure!). I told him to go and ask you what you hit into #4 (into a very healthy headwind) and when you told him you either didn't or couldn't reach it with a 1 iron approach he felt a little better but not that much!

[Josh_Taylor]

TEPaul,

I too remember you from Archipalooza.

Well, I actually hit 8 iron into both #3 and #12 at PD (downwind though), but I was playing #3 with Tom so that made it worse for him I think, his reaction was funny.

You are right about #4 though, what a great hole, especially tough into the breeze.  I didnt quite catch my drive and hit it down the left side of the fairway (which is sensible since a large water hazrad is on the right!!!) , and then hit every bit of my 1 iron about 10 foot in the air and ended up about 20 yards short and left, leaving me a blind pitch over that dune that hugs the left side of the green.

Yardage aside, its great hole on great course that will only get better and better - just like Barona Creek will.

[TEPaul]

Jeeesus man, you hit an 8 iron into both #3 and #12!! You probably ruined Doak's year then!

Frankly, I think Doak has a little too much of his mentor, Pete Dye's mentality of wanting to torment the good player in him and that kind of thing is a major shock to his system. Actually he seems not averse to admitting that!

What you did on #3 (and #12) is a bit shocking actually (even downwind) but the extremely cool thing about Pacific Dunes is the fact that #4 (a par 4) immediately turns back the other way and parallels the shortish par 5 #3. Frankly, I can't think of a better back to back example of two true half pars (in that particular wind direction) anywhere. And for that Doak should be extremely proud of himself for sending a really "player confusing" instant numbers game message. That very thing will probably be very controversial at first with certain players until somebody points out the ridiculous fallacy in their thinking.

Well anyway, Jason, I'm real happy you didn't just nut one into the wind on #4 too and hit something like a 5 iron into the middle of that green into the wind or Doak would have collapsed in horror and probably would have just taken William Flynn's advice and just gone off somewhere next and built an 8,000yd golf course!  

[Josh_Taylor]

Tom,

These two holes raise so many current issues.

I agree with you about two great half pars in a row, but what does par really mean anyway?  Who cares, I belive in hitting it, finding it and hitting again, then add 'em up at the end.  These two holes are a prefect example that par is irrelevant and the golf ball is out of control.

Im sorry to admit, but I use the PRO V1.  I have used the same driver since August 1997.  An old Taylor Mader Burner, not with the bubble shaft, but a plain old true temper shaft.  I am hitting the ball much longer now than I did in 1997, and the only thing I have changed is the ball.  I may be stronger and my swing may be tighter, but that wouldnt have as much influence as the ball has.

People always talk about shaft and face technology being out of control, well, I dont entirely agree, yes they hit the ball further (even the ones that are legal), but only in the right hands.  If a player doesnt have the perfect combination of shaft flew, torque and whatever else, plus clubhead speed of over 100 miles and come through square at impact and hit the ball in the middle of the clubface, then he isnt going to gain the advantage that the club was designed to deliver.  So I think the ball is far more of an issue than club technology, im proof of that.  The ball goes further no matter how hard or square you hit it, probably further in the trees for most, but still further.

[TEPaul]

OOps sorry Josh, I meant Josh not Jason! But actually, mythologically speaking, Jason might not be a bad mistake to make for a guy like you. Sampson would have been more apropos though!

[Josh Taylor]

Thats okay TIM no offense taken

[TEPaul]

Josh:

I agree, I don't know what combination exactly is making the ball go so far right now but for the future the ball is probably the deal either way. The USGA clearly has to try to do something and if the manufacturers decide they are going to produce and market nonconforming equipment anyway, then the ball is going to be about 1000 times more dangerous to the future of golf than the driver will be. A lot of people are thinking that the driver is on the absolute outside edge of available technology now anyway. If the manufacturers push it one more iota those drivers are just going to start breaking.

I really hope I was misreading this but we had a big meeting around Philadelphia not long ago and Trey Holland and Dick Rugge (new B&I guy) came. They were throwing a lot of comparative stats at us and somebody got up and asked if they had taken into consideration with Iron Byron the approximately 125-130mph that a guy like Woods swings. Basically there was silence and I just can't believe they might actually be that obtuse! Rugge quickly launched into the benefits of this new testing process and protocol called "optimization" which is going to be done indoors and doesn't use Iron Byron anymore.

If they never actually cranked old Iron Byron up to something in the neighborhood of Woods's swing speed, I for one, am going to be very disappointed and more than a little pissed.

[Mike Erdmann]

To heck with restrictions on balls & implements, the USGA should be restricting Josh Taylor's swing!  You know there's a problem when Josh, with his steel shafted Taylor Made driver, plays 18 with a PGA Tour pro currently in the top 5 in driving distance and is consistently knocking it by him!  They still talk about his drives at my club from the tournaments we played together last winter.

[Slag_Bandoon]

  I heard from a caddy that Bandon's phased out practice ground is being considered for a world class Croquette field. Anybody heard any word on that decision?  

[Slag Bafoon]

Oops. Pardon my digression.

[TEPaul]

The USGA doesn't need to restrict guys like Josh Taylor--even if they did he would still be in another county from the rest of us.

I also thought it was sort of a credo with these long driving types that no matter how long they were they seemed to accept the fact that there was always somebody out there that could knock it by them.

I had a friend at my club who was so long I still can't believe it and we went down to Seminole one time for a member/guest and this guy we were playing a practice round with said to my friend that he shouldn't try to knock it by his partner. Never forget my friend just sort of stared at him and said "Uh huh". Well on the first hole this guy's partner smashes one way out there and my friend tees it up and flew the ball about 30yds over this guy. That was the first and last time that guy's partner used a driver all day--it was a 3 wood for him the rest of the way.

If you want to know how long this friend of mine really was, on #18, although I admit it was a windy day and we were very much downwind but this friend of mine hit his drive right into the middle of the right greenside bunker!! They are still talking about that down there and that was about fifteen years ago. That is really long!

[RJ_Daley]

Back to Eckenrode and Barona; I just loved the course.  As Gib says, the geometry is great.  The use of the site and skylines of the canyon are blended in beautifully.  I think that Eckenrode as an architect designing for a specific clientele of a resort-casino site did a masterful job because the fairways are very wide and generous, and the roughs are wispy and sparse allowing for you to locate and play a ball that wanders there.  I suspect that extra measures of forgiveness in width and bunker placements were in Eckenrode's mind to serve the client's needs for the type of golfer they will get there at Barona resort and casino.  It is cartball, but I would not hesitate to walk it in morning or evening cooler times.  It doesn't appear that severe of a walk.  The maintenance of firm, dry and fast conditions were excellently maintained and monitored by a obviously talented turf manager that has kept the playing surfaces just at the edge of fertility needs and water.  (I hope they get as good of a turf guy at Rustic Canyon)  The control of irrigation to not migrate with wind to over nourish the rough was very impressive.  

The bunkering was exquisite and I visited quite a few traps.  Particularly, the bottle hole diagonal bunkering on #4 was so very well presented, and I would have preferred for Todd to have used that theme or a few more mid fairway bunkers just few more times, but then again we have to go back to who he is designing for...

The water course of the creek running from side of 13, across 17, and down throughbegining of 18 through to lakes there, reminded me of the style and characteristics of the creek created by Wadsworth personel at Shadow Creek.  It has that "ancient babbling creek" look.

My only criticism is that I would suggest that Todd go back and get the kick slope of the Redan at #7 just right.  I think it would play as good as Yeaman's Hall's Redan if the right side kicker was raised about 8-12 inches more.  Tommy pointed out the depth of the green as too narrow on #16.  I don't agree entirely.  I think the green depth is fine, but that the distance between the front bunker on the green collar and the putting surface needed to be about 8 ft and the lip curled up just a little more.  That would have made it very similar to # 14 at Crystal Downs from the forward tees.

All in all, I'd say Eckenrode has a big future ahead of him...

[THuckaby2]

Todd's work at Shadow Lakes in Brentwood, CA is freakin' exquisite.  I swear to God, with the bunkering there he is channeling MacKenzie.  Todd said he intended to make a fun course that required a little thinking, and he succeeded in spades.  It doesn't have the land that Barona Creek does, and it eventually will be surrounded by houses, but that won't diminish what a damn great course this is.  I hope they take their time opening it so I can keep playing before the masses descend!

Can't wait to see Barona... so when the hell is the King Cup?

Todd has the goods from everything I can tell.  No question.

TH

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Thank you all for the comments, it's great to hear the diversity in opinions.  One thing is for sure, though, and it's that Josh Taylor is ridiculously long.  I'm not sure it's the ball, though, as he's built like an Australian brick s--t house (if they have such a thing).  He's got a great game, and recently took my cash, so watch out!

RJ- I appreciate your thoughts.  You definitely understood the purpose of the course, namely a resort course of a championship nature.  I tried for a high level of playability through wide avenues of play, encouraging the ground game,  strategic approaches and kick-slopes.  If you get lazy out there, however, and don't think about positioning and the next shot, you're in for a very challenging ride.  The fast and firm conditions only accentuate that, as well.  
Thanks for trying out so many bunkers.  I spent a lot of time on those, and appreciate your field tests.  You're a real giver.

Cartball!  Are you kidding?  I thought with Dan King in tow, you most certainly would walk.  Unless you are just talking about the heat in the middle of the day (it does get hot there in July and August), I frankly don't understand that statement.  It's very walkable, and was designed to be so.  Glad you had fun, though, and I appreciate the comments on #7 and #16.

Back to the issue of purpose...that reminds me of a discussion I had with someone about Indian Creek in Florida, a very fun old Flynn course near Miami.  I came away liking the course very much, but not being blown away by any means.  Until the discussion of purpose came up, and I was informed that it was built for the snowbirds coming down for a vacation in the winter.  Their games certainly would not be sharp, and they would simply want a fun track, with some testy shots, but nothing that would beat their brains out.  For this it was perfect, dead-on!  The driving is very generous, but the closer you get to the hole is where the fun really begins.  In this sense, it was an extremely strong golf course, fitting it's purpose perfectly.  Anyone think of other courses you've played that affected you in this manner?  Where your understanding of the purpose of the course really allowed you to appreciate the quality of the work?

Also, if Ron Forse ever gets on this site, I'd love to hear his thoughts on Indian Creek (I believe he's done some work there of late) to see if our discussion was right, or we ate some bad crabs and were delusional.

[Gib_Papazian]

Todd,

RJ's comment about cartball stems in part from the transition between holes. I do not know if there have been any additional footpaths installed since we played, but  there was really no provision for walkers on a few of the holes. It was sort of a choice between shuffling through the native areas or walking on cement cart paths.

This struck me as strange, although you indicated that Barona was going to fix this oversight. It detracts from the overall feeling that the course harmonizes with the surrounds.

There is only one hole with more than a short walk between holes, so I might advise leaning on the management to get with the program.

You have a very special golf course that will knock the eyeballs out of any prospective client. To move it into the rarefied air (where it belongs), and separate it from the wannabe courses, requires Barona be walker friendly. And with a footpath it would be a terrific walk.

Not a to preach to the choir or lecture an architect, but I personally find it impossible to fully evaluate the aesthetic and strategic bunkering of a golf hole when contemplating it from a cart path adjacent to the fairway.

Likely, prospective clients will too.

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