[Walla]

The "creator" thinks that the problem with old courses is that they couldn't move dirt back then? I can't believe that. Didn't AM say that the reason TOC is superior to anything else is that it was constructed when nobody knew anything about designing courses? I wonder what Mr.Fazio thinks of that.
I still like some of his work, I also eat junk food on occasion.
Hey John, ever play Big Cypress I think it's called Winter Springs GC now ?

[Mark_Fine]

The most positive comment I can say about Tom Fazio is that I can't recall ever playing what I would consider a less than 5 golf course designed by him and I've played almost all of his designs ranked by the three major publications plus numerous others.  They are all soundly constructed and in general, reasonably interesting to play.  I can't say that about too many other architects and considering the number he has built, that is a pretty strong compliment.  However, only a few really inspire me such as Victoria National, Galloway, and Shadow Creek.    

[TEPaul]

Walla:

I have to admit I didn't read this entire topic--just the beginning, but I was trying to say in my post above that there was not a sameness to the examples I gave. You said that there is a sameness to Piping, Fishers, Yale and NGLA. I really don't agree with that. MacDonald and Raynor had a career design technique of copying named holes (particularly par 3s) but even with those copies I would never call the MacD/Raynor courses mentioned as ones suffering from a sameness.

If the four MacD/Raynor courses you site are examples of sameness, I'll take sameness every time.

The modern architects that may strive for more difference (less sameness) could be Coore & Crenshaw. Their sites alone have such a spectrum that even with their consistently rugged bunkering there's not much sameness to them at all.

As for Fazio and a sameness, I really don't know. The two of his I do know, Hartefeld and Galloway aren't much the same.

[John_Conley]

Who is Walla?

I have played Big Cypress/Sheoah/Winter Springs a few times.  It is okay.  I actually like Devlin/Von Hagge courses I've seen - particulary the shaping of the greens to make them play smaller than they are.  Amoeba-like.

They did Lagoon Legend, which I just got back from, Royal Oak in Titusville, and Eastwood Municipal in North Fort Myers.

Yes, #6 is still as tight at Winter Springs as it was when you would've played it.

(Sidenote:  Two pet peeves of mine are people who don't identify themselves in this forum and people who don't tell you in the title what the threat was about.  "Are all Fazio courses the same?" seems more appropriate than "Explain".)

Pelican's Nest was very good when it opened, but I've been told to steer clear because of intrusive housing!  By "East", I assume you mean Cypress and Sabal at Bonita Bay.  I love all golf courses named after WWF wrestlers!

[Walla]

John,
Sorry to get you "peeved". You're lucky you don't know me,I'm sure I have many other quriks that would get you too.
Thanks for your response.
You gave me a real good laugh. I wonder if the folks at Bonita Bay are paying Vince and the WWF rights for naming their courses. I found both of these courses very forgetable. I did really did like Twin Eagles next door though. For a strange trip try Grande Oak in Estero by Darwin Sharp, this course makes PB Dye look mellow. Also a course to see in Estero is the new PB and Pete Dye West Bay.
You didn't let us know what you found on your trip to Destin.
I miss my college days fighting the Devil's Elbow in Winter Springs.
Good night,
Walla Walla (Shooter Mc Gowan)

[John_Conley]

Dual nom de plumes?  Can you do that?

Thanks for the tips on that area.  I like playing Sabal a bunch and think Cypress is pretty good.  Cypress is the first Fazio BIG GOLF course I've seen.  

Twin Eagles looks okay from the back 9 at Sabal, but the other one you mention qualifies as a hidden gem.

I will be putting up comments on the FL Panhandle trip sometime soon.  Thanks for your interest.

Devil's Elbow must be a reference to the "Amen Corner" like stretch at Winter Springs.  Narrow par 4 with a second shot over water, followed by a good par 3 over another corner of that same lake.

I moved to this area 9 years ago to attend business school at Rollins, am now 33, and stayed here.  I gather you spent college years here as well.

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