[Mike_Cirba]

The recent discussion of whether it's best to add bunkers "after" the course has been laid out brought to mind something that was discussed during our round at Lehigh yesterday.

Superintendent John Chassard mentioned to us that there is some discussion ongoing about removing the fairway bunker on the left side of the 8th hole.  The hole is "the longest 381 yards I've ever seen", in the words of Scott Burroughs.  The hole plays steeply uphill, and I'd estimate that the bunker is located about 200 yards from the tee.  

According to Chassard, the bunker is not from the original Flynn design, but was added by Ron Forse during a restoration in an effort to better define the landing area.

Evidently, those in favor of removing the bunker feel that it can be carried easily by the best players, while it's right in the range of the shorter driving high-handicapper.  

Given the steepness of the terrain, that does appear to be the case.

Interestingly, the better angle is truly from the right hand side near OB, primarily because of the green orientation.  A drive up the left leaves an approach over bunkers to a shallow, difficult green.

For those who've played Lehigh, as well as others who might just want to weigh in an opinion, what does everyone think?  Should the bunker stay or go?

[Patrick_Mucci]

STAY

[BillV]

As a member, I feel that the hole would lack framing without it.  

In actuality, the hole was once 440+ yards! and there was an alignment bunker lower on the hill.

[Craig Disher]

Mike's description could have been of #13 at Manor CC (mostly Flynn back nine). The fairway bunker is not in play for better players but it frames the hole beautifully. There is talk of removing it - a big mistake in my view. The bunker is in play for the majority of the members. I'll post a picture when I have time.

[Mark_Fine]

Stay!!  The bunker is one of the very few changes to the golf course that is 90-95% restored.  It looks like a Flynn bunker and I have no problem at all with this one staying.  The biggest complaint is that if you hit your ball in that bunker, you can't reach the green with your next shot.  It's a hazard for goodness sakes!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

GO! And if you remember, I didn't care for that bunker the day we played. Yes, it does come into play for me, but that isn't the point.

You are not going to believe this, but I actually got up instead of sleeping-in (My one day to do it) to make a post about the grass bunkers on 11 and 13. They along with the whales tale in the bunker on 18 just don't belong. (I know it is an original, but I have a funny feeling it didn't originally look like that. Mark, weren't you supposed to get me an original picture of it?)

After these minute items, Lehigh is perfect as it sits. I can hardly wait to see the expanded fairways.

[Craig Disher]

I've got these pics so I might as well post them. Here's Flynn's #13 from 1938.

A recent picture. The slope of the fairway doesn't come through adequately but you get the idea.

To show club members what the hole might have looked like if Flynn's design had been followed, I digitally fiddled with the above picture and got this. I added the fairway bunker on the right in lieu of the trees which existed in the 30s. The right fairway bunker was suggested by Brian Schneider - a brilliant observation which improves the hole significantly. It's set at about 230 yards off the member's tees.

[BillV]

Excellent, Craig.  Just the thing we hope to see at LCC in about 18 months.

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
That hole is not #13 at Lehigh!  It's not any hole from Lehigh!

Tommy,
Soften those edges of the grass bunkers on #11 and #13 and I think they are perfect.  Sand would not look as good and lessen the hazard value.  I believe early on they moved back and forth between grass and sand.  I don't have any early pictures but John or Ron Forse surely do.

[BillV]

I meant to imply that the fairway restoration program as planned for Lehigh will make similar fairway width restoration a reality.

#11 and 13 at LCC have the aforementioned grass bunkers which can be seen in Mark's fine article under My Home Course.

#11 is Mark's favorite and my most controversial hole at LCC for those unaware of the hole and our friendly discussion.  We should post a plethora of pictures and get opinions here. (GOD FORBID!!!! that we should judge a hole by pictures!)      , etc.  Tommy_N, I'll try to take them over the next few weeks and send them to you as I will never get them posted myself!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Craig, Excellent work! wasn't it you that was asking me how I did things like this not that long ago? You have far surpassed anything I have ever done!

Mark, How did William Flynn design it? (#11--With bunkers or without?)

[Matt_Ward]

Keep the bunker!

In reading BillV's comments about the hole at one time being 440 yards I only wish that were true.

You have plenty of fairway to avoid the bunker. A superb hole that tests you all the way through.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for pointing out that's not Lehigh in the pic, Mark - I thought I was really losing it.

What course is that photo from?

I like the bunker on #8. I hit a horrendous drive(took so much turf that John thanked me for providing him with a little more job security ) & hitting from thick rough on the left side, I had to think a little about the bunker. The green is really what makes the hole, though. I was thankful to 3 putt from the front right with the hole located way back left. This hole location prompted John to comment that the crew likes to really get him when he gets to play.

[BillV]

Checking a 1940ish aerial, there were 2 bunkers on the crest of that hill.  I'll get the picture one of these days.

[TEPaul]

I'd say leave the bunker on #8. Even if a big hitter can hit it over it, so what, that isn't the place to be over there and if a shorter hitter gets in it so what too, there's plenty of width to that hole and he deserves to be penalized too. Did someone on here say that the bunker now is out there at 230yds? Guess what, that might be short for Tiger but it isn't short for 99% of Lehigh's members and the people who are going to play the course and it's also significantly uphill and probably plays out there longer anyway.

The grass bunkers on #11 & #13? I really like them the way they are now--I think it's a wonderful, unique and unusual look. It's probably more difficult to get a visual fix on that green without the sand and it gives the entire green surround a sort of "shadowy" look. Same with #13. Played with a guy the other day there who had never seen the course before who was crazy about the look of those two greens! That's the fellow who shot the 30 on the back nine. There's got to be another good reason that those two greens don't have sand in their bunkers being down there on the river maybe just a few feet above it. It's easy to say that they should have sand but would you want to be continuously puttiing it back after washouts?

It might do all of us well who comment on these kinds of things, ie; movement or  placement of bunkering and tees, to read the feelings of William Flynn himself on these exact subjects. It's all there in his USGA green section reports.

[Ron Forse]

Bkr on #8 Lehigh is a relcation of the original ball-containing bkr shorter & left, cut into a bank loudly suggesting such a feature, as well as defining purpose stated above by my friend John Chassard. One of only a few changes, it reinstates a hazard into a "current" location. It serves the hole well, in our view. The fact that it is not 250 yds from the tee makes it feel more classic.
Flynn's plan for #11 was with no bkrs at the green.I'm open to the idea of softening thier edges, as well as #13.

[TEPaul]

Oh Hell, fellas, those bunkers on #11 and #13 are just fine the way they are--they're unusual and unique in their grassy, shadowy look--just leave them alone! Stop talking about them and stop thinking so much too! Leave them alone, they're fine!!

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